X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from hub026-NJ-4.exch026.serverdata.net ([206.225.166.167] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTPS id 5623454 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:44:39 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.225.166.167; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from MBX026-E1-NJ-6.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.56]) by HUB026-NJ-4.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.39]) with mapi id 14.02.0309.002; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:44:04 -0700 From: Jeff Whaley To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' Subject: RE: One rotary down and out Thread-Topic: One rotary down and out Thread-Index: Ac1R9jarWROpEBJ2R/u9vwl9Nir5zQAMHJGV Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:44:04 +0000 Message-ID: <234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7AF4FA3B@mbx026-e1-nj-6.exch026.domain.local> References: <234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7AF4EA18@mbx026-e1-nj-6.exch026.domain.local> In-Reply-To: <234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7AF4EA18@mbx026-e1-nj-6.exch026.domain.local> Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [204.237.113.64] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7AF4FA3Bmbx026e1nj6exch02_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7AF4FA3Bmbx026e1nj6exch02_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, I don't think there was an oil issue until the second pump-cycle eith= er but I do suspect the engine cycles blew the hose off the barb-end or sev= erely loosened it. I can't say my times are accurate, guess 2-4 minutes after pump/engine cycl= es that engine quit. We haven't got the plane out of the field ... land-owner did not want to mo= ve it yet ... probably next weekend. How long can a rotary run at 5600 rpm with no oil? I'll have to get back with more details when I know them. I do know that I= did not shut off all electrics until I got out (yes I should have done tha= t in the air) and I could clearly hear fuel pumps running. Jeff From: Lehanover@aol.com Subject: Iron Man/loss of fuel pressure/oil pressure Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:19:21 -0400 (EDT) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net [Message Header] [Undecoded Message] It sounds as though a fuel leak developed that could be overcome by both pu= mps running but not with one pump running. The best news is that you are here to tell the tale. I doubt that there was an oil system problem until the last restart. The rotary can rev up so fast that it is possible to have oil pressure much= higher than the relief valve cracking pressure elsewhere in the system. Pl= us there is a bit of hysteresis in the relief valve (all relief valves). Th= is where the valve will hold one pressure when open and flowing, but requir= es a bit more pressure to unseat (crack). The rotary oil pressure is controlled by a valve at the end of the system, = rather than at the pump as in most engines. So all of the system is at a sl= ightly higher pressure than the cracking pressure all of the time. If you h= ave the stock relief valve in the front cover, it is set at 144 pounds and = is there to protect the oil cooler in cold starts. Not a factor here. The engine being turned by the gear box and the reduction ratio gives the e= ngine a head start on an over rev (A very rapid acceleration)before the RPM= is again controlled by the load. Baring a fire as a result of the loss of oil, the engine can run quite a wh= ile with no oil pressure at all. Big bearings lightly loaded. My driver has= demonstrated that several times. Just speculation on my part. Remember the FAA motto. We're not happy until you're not happy. Lynn E. Hanover ________________________________ From: Jeff Whaley Sent: June 24, 2012 6:52 AM To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' Subject: One rotary down and out Sorry to post bad news guys but need to share this with you form a safety p= erspective. Anyway what happened ... engine failure, prop stopped went into a corn fiel= d and flipped over. I have 2 fuel pumps; decided to turn 1 off, when I did the engine quit - pu= mp back on okay - repeated same result. 5 miles from home base I headed back, radioed inbound, 1 minute later I tho= ught I smelled fuel and another 1 minute later the engine quit. Trimmed the= airplane, mayday and glided straight ahead. Lots of corn and a few soya be= an fields around but didn't want to land in them, saw a gravel road and tur= ned to line up on it, pulled on full flaps for minimum landing speed, when = I turned final there was a huge elm tree on the right edge at my expected t= ouch down point, so at 100' I turned left into the field which was corn ...= everything was going great until I hit the corn. Thankfully the seats bel= ts and shoulder harnesses did their job; upside down I released the belts a= nd got out of there fast. Walked out, phoned police and after they arrived authorities wanted the ELT= shut off so we walked back to the airplane; when I got there I saw oil all= over the bottom of fuselage. Checked engine and found the oil-out line (pu= sh-lock connector) hanging loose. I expect what happened is when the engine= quit and restarted those 2 times that sent a burst of oil pressure and ble= w the hose off ... I pushed it back on and it would not pull back off again= . I had heard some guys were putting heat shrink or other back-up systems o= n these connectors; I wish now I had used a simple stainless worm clamp. E= ngine and redrive will be toast, airplane is substantially damaged ... I'll= salvage what I can. Jeff This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7AF4FA3Bmbx026e1nj6exch02_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lynn, I don't think there was an oil issue until the second pump-cy= cle either but I do suspect the engine cycles blew the hose off the barb-en= d or severely loosened it.

I can't say my times are accurate, guess 2-4 minutes after pump/engine c= ycles that engine quit.

We haven't got the plane out of the field ... land-owner did not wa= nt to move it yet ... probably next weekend.

 

How long can a rotary run at 5600 rpm with no oil?

 

I'll have to get back with more details when I know them.  I do kno= w that I did not shut off all electrics until I got out (yes I should have = done that in the air) and I could clearly hear fuel pumps running.

 

Jeff   

 

From: Lehanover@aol.com
Subject: Iron Man/loss of fuel pressure/oil pressure
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:19:21 -0400 (EDT)
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
3D"Message

3D"Undecoded
It sounds as though a fuel leak developed that could be overcome by bo= th pumps running but not with one pump running.
The best news is that you are here to tell the tale.
I doubt that there was an oil system problem until the last restart.
The rotary can rev up so fast that it is possible to have oil pressure= much higher than the relief valve cracking pressure elsewhere in the syste= m. Plus there is a bit of hysteresis in the relief valve (all relief valves= ). This where the valve will hold one pressure when open and flowing, but requires a bit more pressure to un= seat (crack).
The rotary oil pressure is controlled by a valve at the end of the sys= tem, rather than at the pump as in most engines. So all of the system is at= a slightly higher pressure than the cracking pressure all of the time. If = you have the stock relief valve in the front cover, it is set at 144 pounds and is there to protect the oi= l cooler in cold starts. Not a factor here.
The engine being turned by the gear box and the reduction ratio gives = the engine a head start on an over rev (A very rapid acceleration)before th= e RPM is again controlled by the load.
Baring a fire as a result of the loss of oil, the engine can run quite= a while with no oil pressure at all. Big bearings lightly loaded. My drive= r has demonstrated that several times.
Just speculation on my part.
Remember the FAA motto.
We're not happy until you're not happy.
Lynn E. Hanover

 

From: Jeff Whaley
Sent: June 24, 2012 6:52 AM
To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft'
Subject: One rotary down and out

Sorry to post bad news guys but need to share this with you form a safet= y perspective.

 

Anyway what happened ... engine failure, prop stopped went into a corn f= ield and flipped over.
I have 2 fuel pumps; decided to turn 1 off, when I did the engine quit - pu= mp back on okay - repeated same result.
5 miles from home base I headed back, radioed inbound, 1 minute later = I thought I smelled fuel and another 1 minute later the engine quit. Trimme= d the airplane, mayday and glided straight ahead. Lots of corn and a few so= ya bean fields around but didn't want to land in them, saw a gravel road and turned to line up on it, pulled on = full flaps for minimum landing speed, when I turned final there was a huge = elm tree on the right edge at my expected touch down point, so at 100' I tu= rned left into the field which was corn ... everything was going great until I hit the corn.  Thank= fully the seats belts and shoulder harnesses did their job; upside down I r= eleased the belts and got out of there fast.

 

Walked out, phoned police and after they arrived authorities wanted the = ELT shut off so we walked back to the airplane; when I got there I saw oil = all over the bottom of fuselage. Checked engine and found the oil-out line = (push-lock connector) hanging loose. I expect what happened is when the engine quit and restarted those 2 times= that sent a burst of oil pressure and blew the hose off ... I pushed it ba= ck on and it would not pull back off again. I had heard some guys were putt= ing heat shrink or other back-up systems on these connectors; I wish now I had used a simple stainless worm= clamp.  Engine and redrive will be toast, airplane is substantially d= amaged ... I'll salvage what I can.
Jeff

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the origin= al message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7AF4FA3Bmbx026e1nj6exch02_--