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[98.197.231.39]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rj10sm8517471obc.22.2012.05.13.20.16.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 13 May 2012 20:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FB07902.1010803@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 22:16:18 -0500 From: Dave User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Chris's cooling probs.. was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Twin Velocity References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040103030108030901080303" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040103030108030901080303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit to get a view of what I was suggesting with regards to through-the-cowl.. look at any marine shop's page for "louvered vents stainless". They come in all shapes and sizes and will let the pressure out real easy.. Dave On 5/13/2012 10:01 PM, Thomas Giddings wrote: > I like the augmenter exhaust suggestion. I am using one for my build. > Very slick way to get air out of the cowling. I am with Dave on this > one. A few minor changes would tell the story and get you flying. You > make it pretty after you get running right.JMTCW:) > > Kind Regards > Tom Giddings > > > > On May 13, 2012, at 9:52 PM, Dave > wrote: > >> Whats the plan for exit air... If I remember right you had retro >> style armpits AND naca's. twice the needed inlet area. One armpit >> went to the intake. The other armpit? to the oil cooler? exiting into >> the cowl? >> >> Where is your intercooler airflow coming from (you did a turbo, >> right)... where is it exiting to? (inside the cowl, right?)... Your >> NACA's.. they are going to a plenum in front of the firewall... that >> houses the radiators.. and clearly exits into the cowled space. Does >> that NACA fed plenum have separation from the armpit scoops or is it >> one big common plenum? If so, ram air in the armpit is likely running >> out the top through the naca's... >> >> All this air is coming into the cowl and how is it leaving? When I >> was involved in your build I had thought of using a short tailpipe >> and having an augmenter-style exhaust on that side to help suck air >> out, venturi style. I even bought a twin cessna augmenter tube off >> ebay to serve as a template for making one on your plane. Its 6" >> diameter and a couple feet long, and planned on cutting it down to >> size if we went that way. If your exhaust is blocking most of the >> passenger side cowl exit, then EVERYTHING has to try and cram though >> the pilot side cowl opening. >> >> Thats two NACA's and one armpit (the armpit not dedicated to intake >> air) trying to go out one single hole. I suspect that your in-cowl >> area is one giant high pressure zone. Simply putting a belly scoop on >> the bottom wont fix that.. >> >> If I'm wrong please prove it, please put pics up of your install.. >> cowled and not.. and let some of these guys give some feed back... >> You may not like the idea of cowl flaps but it may be necessary... A >> simper idea would just to put some exit vents into the cowl (they >> sell vented plates at the boat shop.. rivet em in, add microbubble to >> fair the edges, paint.. voila.. Very low drag elegant solution to >> depressurize the cowl... two of em on the upper sides of the upper >> cowl might be a SIMPLE and quick fix (the upper side of the plane is >> a low pressure zone compared to the bottom)... Use physics to help >> you out. >> >> When dealing with airflow the EXIT is just as important if not more >> important as the intake... The belly scoop might work... but... if it >> doesn't address the underlying problem (and I suspect there IS one) >> then you will still have cooling problems. >> >> Dave S >> >> Dave >> >> On 5/13/2012 12:34 PM, Chris Barber wrote: >>> Not very well. I was using the factory NACA. I had hoped, unwisely >>> that it would push enough air through the heat exchangers to do the >>> job. Alas, no joy. I wasn't surprised but I wanted to give it a >>> shot. I even modified the NACA's with some baffles but still no go. >>> >>> I am currently doing as I likely should have already done and >>> placing the rad and oil cooler under the engine with a big ol' ram >>> scoop. Depending on testing I will make the scoop smaller if warranted. >>> >>> I moved the a/c condenser and turbo intercooler to the front of the >>> engine (where the rad/oil cooler was) to be fed from the top NACA. >>> Those items are not as critical and I suspect the NACA's will handle >>> their need. >>> >>> We shall see. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone 4 >>> >>> On May 11, 2012, at 10:07 PM, "Bill Bradburry" >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> How does cooling air get to your heat exchangers? Do you have any >>>> pictures of your install? >>>> >>>> B2 >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *Chris Barber >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 05, 2012 11:04 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Twin Velocity >>>> >>>> I want to but I am having some serious cooling issues on high speed >>>> taxi, up to over 250 degrees for a few minutes (yikes). I tried >>>> something with modified NACA's based on Velocity Inc reducing >>>> cooling issues when they changed from armpit scoops to top NACA's, >>>> however, that is not working so I am going to a more direct ram air >>>> with a P-51 scoop. I hope to start the conversion later today. >>>> The process may have intimidated me years ago, but, hey, >>>> the Gov'ment says I be a "Repairman" ;-) >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>>> ] on behalf of Bill Bradburry >>>> [bbradburry@bellsouth.net ] >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 05, 2012 9:56 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Twin Velocity >>>> >>>> Are you ready to take advantage of that transition training? When >>>> is the first flight? :>) >>>> >>>> Bill B >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *Chris Barber >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 05, 2012 10:06 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Twin Velocity >>>> >>>> It's a kewl plane. I got to see it when I was at the factory last >>>> month for transition training. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone 4 >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 4, 2012, at 7:03 PM, "Kelly Troyer" >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Group, >>>>> >>>>> This thing is just begging for two 13B or Renesis Rotary >>>>> engines !!..........................<:) >>>>> >>>>> http://www.velocityaircraft.com/airplane-models-vtwin.html >>>>> >>>>> V-Twin Video - www.vimeo.com/39171839 >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>> Dyke Delta_"Eventually" >>>>> 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 >>>>> >> --------------040103030108030901080303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit to get a view of what I was suggesting with regards to through-the-cowl.. look at any marine shop's page for "louvered vents stainless". They come in all shapes and sizes and  will let the pressure out real easy..

Dave


On 5/13/2012 10:01 PM, Thomas Giddings wrote:
I like the augmenter exhaust suggestion. I am using one for my build. Very slick way to get air out of the cowling. I am with Dave on this one. A few minor changes would tell the story and get you flying. You make it pretty after you get running right.JMTCW:)

Kind Regards
Tom Giddings



On May 13, 2012, at 9:52 PM, Dave <david.staten@gmail.com> wrote:

Whats the plan for exit air... If I remember right you had retro style armpits AND naca's. twice the needed inlet area. One armpit went to the intake. The other armpit? to the oil cooler? exiting into the cowl?

Where is your intercooler airflow coming from (you did a turbo, right)... where is it exiting to? (inside the cowl, right?)... Your NACA's.. they are going to a plenum in front of the firewall... that houses the radiators.. and clearly exits into the cowled space. Does that NACA fed plenum have separation from the armpit scoops or is it one big common plenum? If so, ram air in the armpit is likely running out the top through the naca's...

All this air is coming into the cowl and how is it leaving? When I was involved in your build I had thought of using a short tailpipe and having an augmenter-style exhaust on that side to help suck air out, venturi style. I even bought a twin cessna augmenter tube off ebay to serve as a template for making one on your plane. Its 6" diameter and a couple feet long, and planned on cutting it down to size if we went that way. If your exhaust is blocking most of the passenger side cowl exit, then EVERYTHING has to try and cram though the pilot side cowl opening.

Thats two NACA's and one armpit (the armpit not dedicated to intake air) trying to go out one single hole. I suspect that your in-cowl area is one giant high pressure zone. Simply putting a belly scoop on the bottom wont fix that..

If I'm wrong please prove it, please put pics up of your install.. cowled and not.. and let some of these guys give some feed back... You may not like the idea of cowl flaps but it may be necessary... A simper idea would just to put some exit vents into the cowl (they sell vented plates at the boat shop.. rivet em in, add microbubble to fair the edges, paint.. voila.. Very low drag elegant solution to depressurize the cowl... two of em on the upper sides of the upper cowl might be a SIMPLE and quick fix (the upper side of the plane is a low pressure zone compared to the bottom)... Use physics to help you out.

When dealing with airflow the EXIT is just as important if not more important as the intake... The belly scoop might work... but... if it doesn't address the underlying problem (and I suspect there IS one) then you will still have cooling problems.

Dave S

Dave

On 5/13/2012 12:34 PM, Chris Barber wrote:
Not very well. I was using the factory NACA. I had hoped, unwisely that it would push enough air through the heat exchangers to do the job. Alas, no joy. I wasn't surprised but I wanted to give it a shot. I even modified the NACA's with some baffles but still no go. 

I am currently doing as I likely should have already done and placing the rad and oil cooler under the engine with a big ol' ram scoop. Depending on testing I will make the scoop smaller if warranted. 

I moved the a/c condenser and turbo intercooler to the front of the engine (where the rad/oil cooler was) to be fed from the top NACA. Those items are not as critical and I suspect the NACA's will handle their need. 

We shall see. 

Sent from my iPhone 4

On May 11, 2012, at 10:07 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Chris,

 

How does cooling air get to your heat exchangers?  Do you have any pictures of your install?

 

B2

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 11:04 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Twin Velocity

 

I want to but I am having some serious cooling issues on high speed taxi, up to over 250 degrees for a few minutes (yikes).  I tried something with modified NACA's based on Velocity Inc reducing cooling issues when they changed from armpit scoops to top NACA's, however, that is not working so I am going to a more direct ram air with a P-51 scoop.  I hope to start the conversion later today.  The process may have intimidated me years ago, but, hey, the Gov'ment says I be a "Repairman" ;-)

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bill Bradburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Twin Velocity

Are you ready to take advantage of that transition training?  When is the first flight?  :>)

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 10:06 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Twin Velocity

 

It's a kewl plane. I got to see it when I was at the factory last month for transition training. 

 

Chris

Sent from my iPhone 4


On May 4, 2012, at 7:03 PM, "Kelly Troyer" <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:

Group,

 

    This thing is just begging for two 13B or Renesis Rotary engines !!..........................<:)

 

 

 

V-Twin Video - www.vimeo.com/39171839

--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2



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