Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #57105
From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Steve Brooks Cozy
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:24:20 -0600
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
I think that the RV-x tank skins are .030, & they have to both carry the fuel weight (at 6g+safety margin) and do structural duty as the wing root end D-cell. The newer polysulfide (I think that's the right term) sealants seem to work fine exposed to ethanol. (The older stuff can't handle even non-E auto gas.)

There are companies selling 'slosh' for automotive/motorcycle tank use, so odds are high that they are fine with alcohol.

I think that a lot depends on how late in the evolutionary chain the particular sealant came into being. A few days ago, I had a long and interesting conversation with an engineer at Precision (fuel injection, fuel pumps, Marvel-Schebler carbs, etc). I asked him about replacing any needed parts in an MA4 a/c carb to allow safe use of ethanol mogas. He said that if you ignore the issues of water capture & subsequent corrosion issues, the 'soft' stuff in the carb wouldn't have any problems with E-gas. My take on the conversation was that newer fuel pumps wouldn't have any deterioration issues, because the 'rubber' suppliers have changed their materials formulations in response to E-gas, & the aviation products got the benefit.

We didn't discuss Jefco, though...

Charlie

On 12/02/2011 11:44 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:
My research lead me to "roto molding".  You build a cheap, sheet metal form, that the molder fills with a calculated
amount of powdered plastic, and then puts on the end of a rotating arm that goes in an oven.  As the form is heated, it
is rotated on all axis.

I was willing to make the form, but couldn't find a molder.  I ended up just welding the seems to make a tank.  The
number of Dyke Delta rotary builders is an even smaller subset than the Cozy rotary builders 8*).  I used .050" for my
tank since it has to actually hold the weight of the fuel.  If I were going to be burying it in a wing where it would be
supported on all sides, I would have used the thinnest material I could have reasonably worked with (.020" maybe?)

Chad Robinson wrote:
I looked into what it would take to get these blow-molded, maybe with a
group buy from other builders. The complication is that the strakes are
a lifting body and are structural. The ribs are part of that structure.
They also serve as anti-slosh plates inside the tanks. Any solution
needs to include both of them. It's do-able: you just need a tank
blow-molded for each of the individual tank sections, then you
plastic-weld them together around the strake ribs. But it means you need
a bunch of molds...

At the time, I had already bought a batch of ProSeal, so I went with
that. It looks pretty good - guess we'll see how it holds up (it sure
wasn't cheap.) So I never finished the research.

The issue is there's a large group of rotary builders but a smaller
group of Cozy MKIV builders. Cozy builders with aircraft engines don't
need to deal with this - so it's an even smaller group. I'd be surprised
if you could get even 25 people together on an order, and you'd need
several hundred to make it economical to build the blow-molds.

One alternate plan I had tinkered with involved making a very
rudimentary mold in the shop, then heating a standard 5-gallon red
plastic gas can and using compressed air to "inflate/reshape" it. A very
thin wall is just fine (preferable, even). The structure comes from the
Cozy's strake structure - you're just making a liner. But it's a lot of
work and finicky to get it right. I also looked into bladders, but there
are maintenance and reliability concerns with them filling/deflating
properly in odd-shaped spaces.

Regards,
Chad

On 12/2/2011 10:48 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:
I reluctantly made a decision to not trust sealing a gas tank to any
petrochemical that is shipped to me in a liquid
form.  You never know what all those petrochemical engineers in
Congress will decide mandate to be put into our fuel
next.  So I welded a fuel tank and glassed that into the place that
was designed for a fiberglass tank.  I would have
preferred buying a premade poly-ethylene or aluminum racing tank, but
I couldn't find one that even came close to fitting.

Aren't the Cozy tanks just big cubes sitting inside the wing roots?
Would it be safer, and possibly easier, to buy a
tank, sit it in the, and glass it into place?


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