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Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:24 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1313870004.30286.YahooMailNeo@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-694551525-1313870004=:30286" --0-694551525-1313870004=:30286 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dale,=0A=A0=A0=A0 All true and I realize -12 is severe overkill as far as t= he volume of oil needed by=0Aa 13B.............My main objective is=A0the r= eduction of=A0frictional loses (restriction) and=0Apossibly slightly lower = oil temp using oversize hose and a filter capable of 20 gpm=0Awith minimal = pressure loss..........I will be lubing a Turbocharger plus the RD1C and=0A= cooling the=A0Rotors with 180 to 200 mm jets..........I will have added thr= ee additional=0Alube jobs=A0(additional volume needed)=A0and additional hea= t=A0to an already stressed oil =0Asystem...........The external pressure re= gulator and bypass=A0just allows=A0me to adjust =0Apressure with out pullin= g the sump.............The downside is the extra weight of=A0-12=A0=0Ahoses= , regulator=A0and an=A0oversize oil filter which I have not calculated yet= but my oil =0Asystem would have been basically the same even without large= r hose and filter...........=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA= JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_= Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Dale_R =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 12:24 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw= d: oil premix data; info request=0A=0A=0AKelly,=0A=0A=A0=A0 I know you aske= d Lynn, but ...=0A=0AThings to think about: the original oil system for the= 13B was designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main b= earings and one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. = Any volume of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in= excessive oil pressure.=A0 Going to an external pressure regulator will so= lve that problem, but to what purpose?=A0 For any given pressure, going fro= m a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (= 5/8") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you= end up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it = and returning it directly to the sump. =0A=0ASo, how much oil flow do you n= eed for your turbo and re-drive?=A0 As much as the engine itself?=A0 I rath= er suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where the oil supply= splits to service the various components won't buy you any advantage excep= t lower oil temps, and=A0 that is actually doubtful.=0A=0ADale_R=0ACOZY MkI= V #0497=0A=0A=0AOn 8/20/2011 8:58 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0ALynn,=0A>=A0= =A0 I will be using -12 hose from engine pump outlet=A0to remote filter to = cooler and to engine=0A>with a "Aviaid" external regulator with a -10 bypas= s directly to the sump (overkill I am sure=0A>but I want to reduce restrict= ion as much as possible)........My question would a single NAPA=0A>1515 or = K&N filter flowing 9 gph put the restriction=A0I am trying to eliminate=A0b= ack in..........?? =A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>= "13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manif= old=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>From: "Lehanover@aol.com" =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:09 AM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Fwd: oil premix data; info request=0A>=0A>=0A>Of the many things to think = about is the oiling system and pieces. =0A>=0A>That bypass valve that filte= r folks talk about is not a valve at all. Most filter spin on cans have the= elements pressed against the top cover =0A>(where the oil enters and leave= s) by a spring. Oil flows=A0into the can=A0(through the small holes=A0aroun= d the outside) and exits through the big center hole. There is a seal betwe= en the outer small holes and the inner big hole.=0A>=0A>When the element lo= ads up with dirt or bearing material, the pressure drop across the element = forces the element away from the top plate against a spring in the bottom o= f the can. That spring is a real coil spring in good filters, and a flat (l= eaf) in cheap filters like Fram.=0A>=0A>Where the can is mounted inverted, = the heavy debris piles up around the plate end of the element. So when the = element bypasses the oil can flow directly from the small holes to the big = hole with no filtration at all.=0A>And right there is all of that dying eng= ine debris ready to go right back to the bearings.=A0=0A>=0A>Where the can = is mounted with the plate up, the heavy stuff is at the bottom of the can a= way from the plate. May not sound like much until=0A>you arrive at over the= trees at Podunk needing only=A02 seconds more power to clear that last tre= e and make the runway.=A0=0A>=0A>The remote mount is a weight penalty unles= s you needed more nose weight anyway. But provides more latitude on locatio= n and clearance. =0A>The inverted element tends to trap foamed oil at low e= ngine speeds, and save it as a dose of air and condensate for your next sta= rt up. =0A>=0A>K&N filters have a 450 to 550 pound burst can and are used i= n most racing classes. They cost just slightly more than a good street filt= er and are available in any hot rod shop or mail order. =0A>=0A>The Frams t= hat Racing Beat suggests are really good filters, and I would be shocked to= find that Fram actually makes them. Those filters are way too big for airc= raft use and very heavy when full of oil. The usual filter stand is built t= o fit the Fram PH8A or Lee FL-1 Both Ford crosses from the 70s. =A0The cent= er hole is 3/4 x 16 thread.=0A>The NAPA 1515 also works just fine if you ha= ve a store close by. =0A>About 9 GPM and 300 pound burst. =0A>=0A>The airpl= ane engine has a more severe duty cycle than a race car. It is =0A>load lim= ited to about 6,500 RPM at wide open throttle. So the heat is constant and = high. The racer has long periods of closed throttle and even though the RPM= =A0may be much higher at times the cooling load is lighter than for the air= craft. =A0=0A>=0A>We use one ounce per gallon of Red Line synthetic 2 cycle= oil in the fuel. No wear, and never a failure. For 2 cycle nonsynthetics I= would never go less than one ounce per gallon. And a bit more won't hurt a= nything.=0A>Never use synthetic crank case oil in the fuel. It is very stab= le at high temps and will make black puddles under you exhaust pipe. =A0=0A= >=0A>I run on as usual.=0A>=0A>Lynn E. Hanover=A0=0A>=0A>In a message dated= 8/19/2011 11:39:52 A.M. Paraguay Standard Time, echristley@att.net writes:= =0A>One of these remote mounts bolted to the firewall solves a lot of probl= ems.=A0 Just cover the filter block mount point =0A>>with a chunk of alumin= um and pipe oil from the remote mount into the port at the bottom of the en= gine below the port.=A0 I =0A>>have an extra adapter to convert that port t= o AN if you want it, but you'll need two.=A0 I think it was Mazda Trix that= =0A>>sells them.=0A>>=0A>>Andrew Martin wrote:=0A>>> Charlie, I made my ow= n adapter that utilises stock filter, 20mm block =0A>>> drilled to reverse = oil ports and accommodate pressure,temp and RD-1c ports.=0A>>> easy to do j= ust mark oil ports from gasket on both sides of adapter =0A>>> block then d= rill holes at a 45=B0 angle from each side, think about it as =0A>>> its no= t hard to do once you drill in the right direction.=0A>>> =0A>>> Andrew=0A>= >> =0A>>> =0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A--=20=0DDale_R=0DCozy MKIV #497 --0-694551525-1313870004=:30286 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dale,
    A= ll true and I realize -12 is severe overkill as far as the volume of oil ne= eded by
a 13B.............My= main objective is the reduction of frictional loses (restriction= ) and
possibly slightly lo= wer oil temp using oversize hose and a filter capable of 20 gpm
with minimal pressure loss.....= .....I will be lubing a Turbocharger plus the RD1C and
cooling the Rot= ors with 180 to 200 mm jets..........I will have added three additional
lube jobs (addi= tional volume needed) and = additional heat to an already stressed oil =
system...........The= external pressure regulator and bypass&= nbsp;just allows me to adjust
pressure with out pu= lling the sump.............The downside = is the extra weight of -12 
hoses , regulator&nb= sp;and an oversize oil filter which I have not calculated yet but my oil
system would have be= en basically the same= even without larger hose and filter...........    &nbs= p;
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE D= ELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM= 2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Dale_R <dale.rog@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net>
Sent: Satur= day, August 20, 2011 12:24 PM
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request

Kelly,

   I know you asked Lynn, but= ...

Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was = designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings a= nd one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volum= e of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessiv= e oil pressure.  Going to an external pressure regulator will solve th= at problem, but to what purpose?  For any given pressure, going from a= 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8= ") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you en= d up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and= returning it directly to the sump.

So, how much oil flow do you ne= ed for your turbo and re-drive?  As much as the engine itself?  I= rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where the oil supply splits to service the various components won't buy you any adva= ntage except lower oil temps, and  that is actually doubtful.

D= ale_R
COZY MkIV #0497


On 8/20/2= 011 8:58 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=20
Lynn,
   I will be using -12 hose from engine pump outlet&nb= sp;to remote filter to cooler and to engine
with a "Aviaid" external regulator= with a -10 bypass directly to the sump (overkill I am sure
but I want to reduce restriction as much as possible)........My = question would a single NAPA
1515 or K&N filter flowing 9 gph put the restriction I am trying to eliminate back in..........= ??  
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/E= M2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

= From: "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:09 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oi= l premix data; info request

Of the many things to think about is the oiling system and pieces.
 
That bypass valve that filter folks talk about is not a valve at all. = Most filter spin on cans have the elements pressed against the top cover
(where the oil enters and leaves) by a spring. Oil flows into the= can (through the small holes around the outside) and exits throu= gh the big center hole. There is a seal between the outer small holes and t= he inner big hole.
 
When the element loads up with dirt or bearing material, the pressure = drop across the element forces the element away from the top plate against = a spring in the bottom of the can. That spring is a real coil spring in goo= d filters, and a flat (leaf) in cheap filters like F= ram.
 
Where the can is mounted inverted, the heavy debris piles up around th= e plate end of the element. So when the element bypasses the oil can flow d= irectly from the small holes to the big hole with no filtration at all.
And right there is all of that dying engine debris ready to go right b= ack to the bearings. 
 
Where the can is mounted with the plate up, the heavy stuff is at the = bottom of the can away from the plate. May not sound like much until
you arrive at over the trees at Podunk needing only 2 seconds mor= e power to clear that last tree and make the runway. 
 
The remote mount is a weight penalty unless you needed more nose weigh= t anyway. But provides more latitude on location and clearance.
The inverted element tends to trap foamed oil at low engine speeds, an= d save it as a dose of air and condensate for your next start up.
 
K&N filters have a 450 to 550 pound burst can and are used in most= racing classes. They cost just slightly more than a good street filter and= are available in any hot rod shop or mail order.
 
The Frams that Racing Beat suggests are = really good filters, and I would be shocked to find that Fram actually makes them. Those filters are way too big for air= craft use and very heavy when full of oil. The usual filter stand is built = to fit the Fram PH8A or Lee FL-1 Both Ford cr= osses from the 70s.  The center hole is 3/4 x 16 thread.
The NAPA 1515 also works just fine if yo= u have a store close by.
About 9 GPM and 300 pound burst.
 
The airplane engine has a more severe duty cycle than a race car. It i= s
load limited to about 6,500 RPM at wide open throttle. So the heat is = constant and high. The racer has long periods of closed throttle and even t= hough the RPM may be much higher at times the cooling load is lighter = than for the aircraft.  
 
We use one ounce per gallon of Red Line synthetic 2 cycle oil in the f= uel. No wear, and never a failure. For 2 cycle nonsy= nthetics I would never go less than one ounce per gallon. And a bit = more won't hurt anything.
Never use synthetic crank case oil in the fuel. It is very stable at h= igh temps and will make black puddles under you exhaust pipe.  
 
I run on as usual.
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
 
In a message dated 8/19/2011 11:39:52 A.M. Paraguay Standard Time, ec= hristley@att.net writes:
One of these remote mounts bolted to the firewall solv= es a lot of problems.  Just cover the filter block mount point
wit= h a chunk of aluminum and pipe oil from the remote mount into the port at t= he bottom of the engine below the port.  I
have an extra adapter t= o convert that port to AN if you want it, but you'll need two.  I thin= k it was Mazda Trix that
sells them.

Andrew Martin wrote:
>= ; Charlie, I made my own adapter that utilises stock filter, 20mm block
> drilled to reverse oil ports and accomm= odate pressure,temp and RD-1c ports.
> easy to do just mark oil ports= from gasket on both sides of adapter
> block then drill holes at a = 45=B0 angle from each side, think about it as
> its not hard to do o= nce you drill in the right direction.
>
> Andrew
>
>= 




--=20
Dale_R
Cozy MKIV #497


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