X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.245] (HELO mail.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5096489 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:17:58 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.245; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC5DDB.9D323ABC" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:18:29 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F331E855@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. Thread-Index: Acxd20gqnA90BJ2LQeG2VffkOdCInAAAC5qA References: From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC5DDB.9D323ABC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That would be considered extended range tanks. :-) =20 Bobby ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:14 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. =20 Kelly,=20 =20 You can use a -16, but you'll still be limited by the inlet/outlet size of the Andair valve. I'm using -8 supply with a -6 return. These were upsized from original -6/-4 called for in the plans. =20 =20 Mark On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: Al, Sounds like fuel line to the EFI pump (external pump) needs to be about AN-8 or even AN-10 instead of the typical AN-6 used by most............ =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 From: Al Wick To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. =20 < Mark's problem can best be described as an "Air=20 =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 12:40 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. =20 Al , Mark , Ernest and All, =20 Perhaps a name change for the problem is in order.............Instead of an actual "Fuel Vapor Lock" Mark's problem can best be described as an "Air Lock" in the pressure line (Or Air Entrapment Lock)..........Ernest's problem of injectors that leak down fuel (into the manifold or the engine with potential flooding or the fire hazard of dripping fuel in the cowl) has the same solution=20 (bypass orifice) either external or internal to the regulator.......Both problems no matter what you call them can be cured with the same solution............. =20 Al as for the leaky injectors it would be great if these things did not wear over time but they do eventually become unable to hold pressure and will exhibit leak-down at some rate........Unfortunately the Rotary engine is much more prone to flooding and hard starting if this fuel ends up in the Rotor chamber..........If the primary injectors are left in their stock positions and are leaky this is a direct route to the Rotor............The secondary injectors may or may not be a problem depending position and/or manifold design........... =20 The bottom line is both potential problems can be averted with a simple bypass orifice.............As for an actual "Fuel Vapor Lock" as you say this is a different problem and can be addressed by careful attention to fuel pump positioning (external or in-tank) ,supply tube (or hose) size, low restriction filters to pump inlet, heat shielding if appropriate, etc................IMHO=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 1:46 PM =09 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. =20 Al,=20 =20 You wrote,"You also test it without the bleed line?"=20 =20 Yes, the test led to the search for a solution. You can see the "bypass circuit" on Egg's fuel system schematic at http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/Manual-Updates/EarlyManualFuel.html. This is what I incorporated into my fuel system, and it solved the problem. Its been quite a few years now, but I may still have some of the posts on the Eggenfellner list that occurred in search for this as the final solution. =20 You wrote,"FWIW, everything you describe is not vapor lock, has nothing to do with vapor lock." =20 =20 As I said, I'm not sure if my condition fits the definition of "vapor lock", but that's what someone labeled it, and it stuck. The problem is that EFI pumps don't draw or push air very well. So, if the flowing fuel is replaced by air due to an empty tank, the pump keeps running, but essentially stops pumping fuel. With a 40# spring in the downstream circuit, it is virtually impossible for the pump to pass the air even though the selector valve has been swiched to the full tank. I would agree that the fuel injectors should be able to pass the air, provided the prop is still turning. (This was not the case with my ground test.) The bypass circuit ensures that flow will be restored as soon as the bubble passes through the pump and the fuel pump regains its prime. =20 =20 Mark S. =20 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Al Wick wrote: =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:19 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. =20 Al, =20 I would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pumps located as low as possible, in a cool area, and a return system should not be troubled with vapor locking. Although I guess it could happen in Death Valley in August if the a/c is left out in the sun for 8 hours, and running auto gas. So far, I haven't had any problem here in Texas (temps 105* today). =20 =20 My purpose for installing the bypass circuit was more critical to safe flight. (The solution was the result of a forced landing, or two, in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.) During ground runs, using a 5-gallon can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not restore pressure once the tank had been allowed to run dry. When this occurred, the EFI pump would suck a big slug of air into the inlet side of the pump, loose pressure, and being unable to build psi equal to the pressure regulator setting, it would stop pumping fuel (vapor lock). The only way to restore operation was to crack open the system downstream of the pump until the slug of air could be passed on through the fuel pump. Not sure this meets your definiton of "vapor lock", but I think it does, but for a different reason than fuel vapor pressure. =20 I have tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized. If the tank runs dry, switched to a full tank, the efi pump will restore pressure to the system within a few seconds. I urge all builders to run this test on their fuel system to determine whether or not their pumps are able to restore pressure after running a tank dry. Or, just don't ever run a tank dry. =20 Mark S. =09 =09 =20 On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ernest Christley wrote: Al Wick wrote: I'm really concerned for some of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to do with vapor lock. Virtually no effect at all. =20 =20 I don't know why others are doing it, but for me, the bleed has nothing at all to do with vapor lock. Some conversations have been mixed together, so I can see how that could be the impression. The point of the pressure bleed is to bleed off the pressure after shutdown. =09 I have a strong, positive head pressure going into my pumps. They, and the regulator, are about 8" directly below the tank. Excess fuel goes back to the opposite side of the tank from the pickup, and a single line goes forward to feed the injectors. The fuel lines are arranged such that heat soaking the lines to the point of boiling the gas will push liquid fuel down hill and behind the firewall, isolating the gaseous gas with its heat at the top of the line. Turning the pumps on will pressurize the line to 55psi, returning most of the gaseous fuel back to a liquid state. The ECM is programmed for a longer clearing pulse on hot start. =09 The point of the bleed is to allow fuel to move back to the tank. I had the issue of a the pressurized lines being perfectly sealed. The pressurized fuel was finding the path of least resistance out, which just happened to be out the injector and into the intake manifold where it sat as a little puddle. Heat soaking the lines would not push liquid fuel downhill and back behind the firewall. It would push more fuel into the manifold. A puddle of gas sitting in a composite manifold, just above a hot exhaust stack is just bad mojo. A poorly sealed regulator allows the pressure to bleed off in about 5 seconds (give or take), isolating the hot fuel in front of the firewall, and keeping the rest cool and out of the intake manifold. =09 Got nuthin' to do with vapor lock. =09 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 =20 =09 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =09 =09 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC5DDB.9D323ABC Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That would be considered extended = range tanks. J

 

Bobby

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Thursday, August = 18, 2011 12:14 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that = matter.

 

Kelly, 

 

You can use a -16, but you'll still be limited by the = inlet/outlet size of the Andair valve.  I'm using -8 supply with a -6 return. =  These were upsized from original -6/-4 called for in the plans. =  

 

Mark

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> = wrote:

Al,

  Sounds like fuel line to the EFI pump (external pump) needs to be about = AN-8 or

even AN-10 instead of the typical AN-6 used by = most............

 

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETIC= S"_TO4E50 Turbo

 

From: Al Wick <alwick@juno.com>


To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Sent: Thursday, = August 18, 2011 12:15 PM


Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that = matter.

 

< Mark's= problem can best be described as an "Air =

<Lock" in the pressure line

 

I'd describe it as not having "wet fuel inlet". When you turn that = fuel valve "on" the first time, if inlet gets wet, you've = nailed an important design characteristic.

You can simulate this with clear hose and water. Seal off one end of hose. No = air leaks allowed. Then pour water in other end. If water makes it to closed end, = you've got a good design. It's that simple.

You'll notice that small diam hose doesn't behave the same. What happens when I = add filter to the hose? What if I put a loop in the line? You are asking the = air at capped end to displace. The air has to be able to move toward open end = of tube. Play with it, pretty interesting.

 

If your plumbing is already done, you can tape clear hose to plumbing and do the = test with water.

 

All you are doing is converting theory to facts. Important concept. =

 

-al wick

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, = August 17, 2011 12:40 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that = matter.

 

Al , Mark , Ernest and All,

 

  Perhaps a name change for the problem is in = order.............Instead of an

actual "Fuel Vapor Lock" Mark's problem can best be described as an "Air

Lock" in the pressure line (Or Air Entrapment Lock)..........Ernest's = problem

of injectors that leak down fuel (into the manifold or the engine with = potential

flooding or the fire hazard of dripping fuel in the cowl) has the same solution =

(bypass orifice) either external or internal to the regulator.......Both = problems

no matter what you call them can be cured with the same = solution.............

 

    Al as for the leaky injectors it would be great if these things = did not wear

over time but they do eventually become unable to hold pressure and = will

exhibit leak-down at some rate........Unfortunately the Rotary engine is = much

more prone to flooding and hard starting if this fuel ends up in the = Rotor

chamber.........= .If the primary injectors are left in their stock positions and = are

leaky this is a direct route to the Rotor............The secondary injectors = may

or may not be a problem depending position and/or manifold = design...........

  

  &nbs= p; The bottom line is both potential problems can be averted with a = simple

bypass orifice.............As for an actual "Fuel Vapor Lock" as you = say this is

a different problem and can be addressed by careful attention to fuel = pump

positioning (external or in-tank) ,supply tube (or hose) size, low = restriction

filters to pump inlet, heat shielding if appropriate, = etc................IMHO 

 

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETIC= S"_TO4E50 Turbo

 

From: Mark Steitle = <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Sent: Wednesday, = August 17, 2011 1:46 PM


Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that = matter.

 

Al,

 

You wrote,"You also test it = without the bleed line?" 

 

Yes, the test led to the search for a solution.  You can see the "bypass circuit" on Egg's fuel system schematic at http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/Manual-Updates/Earl= yManualFuel.html.  This is what I incorporated into my fuel system, and it = solved the problem.  Its been quite a few years now, but I may still have some of the posts on the Eggenfellner list that = occurred in search for this as the final solution.
 
You wrote,"FWIW, everything you describe is not vapor lock, has nothing to do = with vapor lock."  =

 

As = I said, I'm not sure if my condition fits the definition of "vapor = lock", but that's what someone labeled it, and it stuck.  The problem is that = EFI pumps don't draw or push air very well.  So, if the flowing = fuel is replaced by air due to an empty tank, the pump keeps running, but = essentially stops pumping fuel.  With a 40# spring in the downstream circuit, it is virtually impossible for the pump to pass the air even = though the selector valve has been swiched to the full tank.  I would agree = that the fuel injectors should be able to pass the air, provided the prop is = still turning.  (This was not the case with my ground test.) The bypass = circuit ensures that flow will be restored as soon as the = bubble passes through the pump and the fuel pump regains its prime.  =

 

Mark = S.

 

On = Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Al Wick <alwick@juno.com> = wrote:

<I would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pumps located as low as possible

 

Instead of speculations, you can actually measure how good it is. A pump, clear = fuel lines, and water instead of fuel. Pinch fuel line with pliers to increase = pressure drop.  Watch bubbles come out of solution. Hear the rattle from = pump due to it's inability to flow air.

If you also put a pressure gage on pump inlet, you can see how fine fuel filter increases risk. You can see how small diameter tubing increases risk, = heat, head pressure, etc etc.

 

<the result of a forced landing

Egg had one forced landing. It was caused by vapor lock. Absolutely NOTHING to do = with the lack of bleed line. A day later, Jan made it to the crash site. Pump = would not flow fuel until he cracked the line loose. This is simply because the = inlet to pumps was not wet. He did not understand this. He just reacted to = symptoms. Nothing to do with vapor lock. Remember, this was crash site. Who knows = what attitude plane was at. As I described, if you screwed up your plumbing = from tank to pump, then pump is not self priming. =

 

<tested this system on the ground and it works as = advertized

You also test it without the bleed line?

 

FWIW, everything you describe is not vapor lock, has nothing to do with vapor = lock.

 

-al wick

 <= /p>

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Steitle

Sent: Wednesday, = August 17, 2011 9:19 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that = matter.

 

Al,

 

I = would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pumps located as low = as possible, in a cool area, and a return system should = not be troubled with vapor locking.  Although I guess it could happen = in Death Valley in August if the a/c is left = out in the sun for 8 hours, and running auto gas.  So far, I haven't had any = problem here in Texas (temps 105* today).   

 

My = purpose for installing the bypass circuit was more critical to safe = flight.  (The solution was the result of a forced landing, or two, in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)  During ground runs, using a = 5-gallon can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not restore pressure once the = tank had been allowed to run dry.  When this occurred, the EFI pump would suck a big slug of air into the inlet side of the pump, = loose pressure, and being unable to build psi equal to the pressure = regulator setting, it would stop pumping fuel (vapor lock).  The only way to = restore operation was to crack open the system downstream of the pump until the = slug of air could be passed on through the fuel pump.  Not sure this = meets your definiton of "vapor lock", but I think it does, but for a different reason than fuel vapor pressure.

 

I = have tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized.  If the tank = runs dry, switched to a full tank, the efi pump will restore pressure to the = system within a few seconds.  I urge all builders to run this test on = their fuel system to determine whether or not their pumps are able to restore = pressure after running a tank dry.  Or, just don't ever run a tank = dry.

 

Mark = S.



 

On = Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net> = wrote:

Al = Wick wrote:

I'm really concerned for some of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to = do with vapor lock. Virtually no effect at all.
 

 

I = don't know why others are doing it, but for me, the bleed has nothing at all to do = with vapor lock.  Some conversations have been mixed together, so I can = see how that could be the impression.  The point of the pressure bleed is = to bleed off the pressure after shutdown.

I have a strong, positive head pressure going into my pumps.  They, = and the regulator, are about 8" directly below the tank.  Excess = fuel goes back to the opposite side of the tank from the pickup, and a single = line goes forward to feed the injectors.  The fuel lines are arranged = such that heat soaking the lines to the point of boiling the gas will push liquid = fuel down hill and behind the firewall, isolating the gaseous gas with its = heat at the top of the line.  Turning the pumps on will pressurize the line = to 55psi, returning most of the gaseous fuel back to a liquid state.  The ECM = is programmed for a longer clearing pulse on hot start.

The point of the bleed is to allow fuel to move back to the tank. =  I had the issue of a the pressurized lines being perfectly sealed.  The pressurized fuel was finding the path of least resistance out, which = just happened to be out the injector and into the intake manifold where it = sat as a little puddle.  Heat soaking the lines would not push liquid fuel = downhill and back behind the firewall.  It would push more fuel into the = manifold.  A puddle of gas sitting in a composite manifold, just above a hot = exhaust stack is just bad mojo.  A poorly sealed regulator allows the = pressure to bleed off in about 5 seconds (give or take), isolating the hot fuel in = front of the firewall, and keeping the rest cool and out of the intake = manifold.

Got nuthin' to do with vapor lock.

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml

 

 

 

 

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