X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm6-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.114] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5095706 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:20:56 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.114; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.101] by nm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2011 03:20:21 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.75] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2011 03:20:21 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1012.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2011 03:20:21 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 360596.50233.bm@omp1012.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 95687 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Aug 2011 03:20:21 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1313637621; bh=PTr7pwGoHe1kGjLiqCaCOXT40kH4ooPfN5USW6L7yKU=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Ehqyq5r32CpAzdD9v5GIyflx39FCpm1wePTxl+sWIq4nxLcdsIShnzdxaMJqgTVWxCwkzmYZytmjxzFTY2mfVO6gljGegB5kx0q0VODYviSHL99WnFg7aBL0I6f5D4Ict3IIgkiKE7zZypKePKmLGK8AGG3C69qImrDvC+EyCOg= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nFa/HTzzlaFMjRqLKrulHqHXtF9NgpVKNDoLv0tepIoOyLGKy76CDZHDFnCf5nUdBGDhLQGy/yd8G0eprw4XP8x1LEcPl4WTDsYXTn9fKCIJLwmAzDJTyqdzl3h4K01pzl7P6bCahlVvqFR6IOiKtIz5edkCs87Ux4f6wdITers=; X-YMail-OSG: YZbdF.gVM1k0sLk4jThgHKjmi8M5hKEsDG5acFqvg3PqD1h DFD482YN55RtdwG10Wl5t3aAUgeNJGv85AeNholLZ9kzJU1X1AKLSOPRACvh fzkgzyTwhr9BLTbhuKvv3HQVd.LTo23G5pl9IYoTdJ8HzPLTQWubT2TEVJDl 63LZmbSN7fqh8xvhJuius1Ra4wMr2AlIGGxzVtKihlnOtlljJTgl36OWgwz0 pRf_wdGD1RwKH8L.tf6_CXT0k2_fIFpmg0nLKbmndjCuH8UajI5vnAot.fqv uUTNVTAV659GxDEFRUfaX1UEkdb5nHl67NobJthDtR1nGRUAvTpEvYRnxdEE 6RNqSmOILa7Ek1gVEoId3RDi3ofk3QzRS6cXJXrQDQLNA3eHsWGR6t5zIH7T f47F5OQf2BB4NyCTzU4QYNyuFmbk6ZGZvYXGTgUV9SMKvL9LnjxPyRcB9MoK vYuGGoqAwIRV11qbyWgaVqo.eh9gIdRR5bVQcXi8IXqpfti8EJQBpQdeDZ_e wEHaDUMsRHzqed8rR3_WOh1DyrtM_lJ39sTpnWrTcJI737H.1gB57zSpsftn lDR_hOfOiTe4MYDXXKQqqqFtHw9wiNRtZmUeqMXk0Z179EV8- Received: from [208.114.47.38] by web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:20:20 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1313637620.74276.YahooMailNeo@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:20:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-599997663-1313637620=:74276" --0-599997663-1313637620=:74276 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,=0A=A0=A0=A0 I saw those but I did not look deep enough into their inn= er workings !!.........I thought=0Athey were just heavy duty vane type pump= s.........Thanks.............=A0=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Even= tually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/O= il Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A= Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 7:57 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis = Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter.=0A=0A=0AKelly,=A0 = =0A=0AIt is a Holley, model 12-700. =A0Here's a link,=A0http://www.summitra= cing.com/parts/HLY-12-700/ =A0Its good for 47gph at 80psi. =A0They also mak= e a higher capacity model, p/n 12-890, that is good for 70gph at 80psi. =A0= =A0=0A=0AMark S.=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A=0AMark,=0A>=A0=A0=A0 What make were the pumps.......= ..The only Gerotor fuel pumps I saw were Holley=0A>carb pumps (about 15 psi= max pressure) ??...............=0A>=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (E= ventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backp= late/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>From: Mark Steit= le =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:54 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRot= ary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter.=0A>= =0A>=0A>Tracy,=A0 =0A>=0A>=0A>What type of pumps are the pumps that you car= ry, vane? =A0I was looking today on Summit Racing's site and saw a "gerotor= " pump. =A0This is the type pump Mazda uses for the rotary's oil pump. =A0I= t was more than twice the price, but it looks like it would tolerate dry ru= nning much better than the vane style does. =A0So, I'm wondering if this mi= ght be a better choice for those that routinely run their tanks dry before = switching to the other tank. =A0I'd hate to ruin a pump at 14,000msl with l= ots of fuel in the other tank, but unable to get it to the injectors.=0A>= =0A>=0A>Mark S.=0A>=0A>=0A>On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Tracy wrote:=0A>=0A>Just a cautionary note on that testing.=A0=A0 If = you do the run tank dry test that Mark suggested,=A0 make the 'dry run' por= tion of the test as short as possible. =A0 Auto mechanics love people to ru= n their tanks dry because it's good for business.=A0 The lifespan of the pu= mp when dry is VERY short.=0A>>=0A>>Better never to run the tank dry. =A0 T= hat was a big reason I used a Facet transfer pump to the EFI feed tank.=A0 = You never have to run a tank dry to get the last drop before running the EF= I pump dry.=0A>>=0A>>Tracy =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:1= 9 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:=0A>>=0A>>Al,=0A>>>=0A>>>I wo= uld think that a well-designed=A0fuel system=A0with the pumps located as lo= w as possible, in a=A0cool area,=A0and=A0a return system=A0should not be tr= oubled with vapor locking.=A0=A0Although I guess it could happen in Death V= alley in=A0August if the a/c is left out in the sun for 8 hours, and runnin= g auto gas.=A0 So far, I haven't had any problem here in Texas (temps 105* = today).=A0 =A0 =0A>>>=0A>>>My purpose for installing the bypass circuit was= more critical to safe flight.=A0 (The solution was=A0the result of a force= d landing, or two,=A0in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)=A0 During gro= und runs, using a 5-gallon can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not r= estore pressure once the tank had been allowed to run dry.=A0=A0When this o= ccurred, the EFI pump=A0would suck a big slug of air into the inlet side of= the pump, loose pressure,=A0and being unable to build psi equal to the pre= ssure regulator setting, it would stop pumping fuel (vapor lock).=A0 The on= ly way to restore operation was to crack open the system downstream of the = pump until the slug of air could be passed on through the fuel pump.=A0=A0N= ot sure this meets your definiton of "vapor lock", but I think it does, but= for a different reason than fuel vapor pressure.=0A>>>=0A>>>I have tested = this system on the ground and it works as advertized.=A0 If the tank runs d= ry, switched to a full tank, the efi pump will restore pressure to the syst= em within a few seconds.=A0 I urge all builders to run this test on their f= uel system to determine whether or not their pumps are able to restore pres= sure after running a tank dry.=A0 Or, just don't ever run a tank dry.=0A>>>= =0A>>>Mark S.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, E= rnest Christley wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>Al Wick wrote:=0A>>>= >=0A>>>>I'm really concerned for some of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed= has nothing to do with vapor lock. Virtually no effect at all.=0A>>>>>=A0= =0A>>>>>=0A>>>>I don't know why others are doing it, but for me, the bleed = has nothing at all to do with vapor lock. =A0Some conversations have been m= ixed together, so I can see how that could be the impression. =A0The point = of the pressure bleed is to bleed off the pressure after shutdown.=0A>>>>= =0A>>>>I have a strong, positive head pressure going into my pumps. =A0They= , and the regulator, are about 8" directly below the tank. =A0Excess fuel g= oes back to the opposite side of the tank from the pickup, and a single lin= e goes forward to feed the injectors. =A0The fuel lines are arranged such t= hat heat soaking the lines to the point of boiling the gas will push liquid= fuel down hill and behind the firewall, isolating the gaseous gas with its= heat at the top of the line. =A0Turning the pumps on will pressurize the l= ine to 55psi, returning most of the gaseous fuel back to a liquid state. = =A0The ECM is programmed for a longer clearing pulse on hot start.=0A>>>>= =0A>>>>The point of the bleed is to allow fuel to move back to the tank. = =A0I had the issue of a the pressurized lines being perfectly sealed. =A0Th= e pressurized fuel was finding the path of least resistance out, which just= happened to be out the injector and into the intake manifold where it sat = as a little puddle. =A0Heat soaking the lines would not push liquid fuel do= wnhill and back behind the firewall. =A0It would push more fuel into the ma= nifold. =A0A puddle of gas sitting in a composite manifold, just above a ho= t exhaust stack is just bad mojo. =A0A poorly sealed regulator allows the p= ressure to bleed off in about 5 seconds (give or take), isolating the hot f= uel in front of the firewall, and keeping the rest cool and out of the inta= ke manifold.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Got nuthin' to do with vapor lock.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>-= -=0A>>>>Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>>>>Archive and UnSub: =A0= http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>>>>=0A>>>=0A= >>=0A>=0A>--=0A>Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>Archive and UnSub= :=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>=0A>=0A> --0-599997663-1313637620=:74276 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
    I= saw those but I did not look deep enough into their inner workings !!.....= ....I thought
they were just heavy= duty vane type pumps.........Thanks............. 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent:= Wednesday, August 17, 2011 7:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any o= thers, for that matter.

Kelly, 

It is a Holley, model 12-700.  Here's a link, = http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-12-700/  Its good for 47gph = at 80psi.  They also make a higher capacity model, p/n 12-890, that is= good for 70gph at 80psi.   

Mark S.

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Kell= y Troyer <keltro@att.net>= wrote:
Mark,
    What make were the pumps.........The only Ger= otor fuel pumps I saw were Holley
carb pumps (about 15 psi max pressure) ??...............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:54 PM<= BR>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter.
Tracy, =20

What type of pumps are the pumps that you carry, vane?  I was loo= king today on Summit Racing's site and saw a "gerotor" pump.  This is = the type pump Mazda uses for the rotary's oil pump.  It was more than = twice the price, but it looks like it would tolerate dry running much bette= r than the vane style does.  So, I'm wondering if this might be a bett= er choice for those that routinely run their tanks dry before switching to = the other tank.  I'd hate to ruin a pump at 14,000msl with lots of fue= l in the other tank, but unable to get it to the injectors.

Mark S.

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a cautionary note on that testing.   If= you do the run tank dry test that Mark suggested,  make the 'dry run'= portion of the test as short as possible.   Auto mechanics love peopl= e to run their tanks dry because it's good for business.  The lifespan= of the pump when dry is VERY short.

Better never to run the tank dr= y.   That was a big reason I used a Facet transfer pump to the EFI fee= d tank.  You never have to run a tank dry to get the last drop before = running the EFI pump dry.

Tracy

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Al,
 
I would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pump= s located as low as possible, in a cool area, and a return s= ystem should not be troubled with vapor locking.  Although I= guess it could happen in Death Valley in August if the a/c is left ou= t in the sun for 8 hours, and running auto gas.  So far, I haven't had= any problem here in Texas (temps 105* today).   
 
My purpose for installing the bypass circuit was more critical to safe= flight.  (The solution was the result of a forced landing, or tw= o, in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)  During ground runs, = using a 5-gallon can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not restore pre= ssure once the tank had been allowed to run dry.  When this occur= red, the EFI pump would suck a big slug of air into the inlet side of = the pump, loose pressure, and being unable to build psi equal to the p= ressure regulator setting, it would stop pumping fuel (vapor lock).  T= he only way to restore operation was to crack open the system downstream of= the pump until the slug of air could be passed on through the fuel pump.&n= bsp; Not sure this meets your definiton of "vapor lock", but I think i= t does, but for a different reason than fuel vapor pressure.
 
I have tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized.&nb= sp; If the tank runs dry, switched to a full tank, the efi pump will restor= e pressure to the system within a few seconds.  I urge all builders to= run this test on their fuel system to determine whether or not their pumps= are able to restore pressure after running a tank dry.  Or, just don'= t ever run a tank dry.
 
Mark S.


 
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ernest Christley <= ;echristley@att.net> wrote:
Al Wick wrote:
I'm really concerned for some of these fuel designs. T= he fuel bleed has nothing to do with vapor lock. Virtually no effect at all= .
 

I don't know why others are doing it,= but for me, the bleed has nothing at all to do with vapor lock.  Some= conversations have been mixed together, so I can see how that could be the= impression.  The point of the pressure bleed is to bleed off the pres= sure after shutdown.

I have a strong, positive head pressure going i= nto my pumps.  They, and the regulator, are about 8" directly below th= e tank.  Excess fuel goes back to the opposite side of the tank from t= he pickup, and a single line goes forward to feed the injectors.  The = fuel lines are arranged such that heat soaking the lines to the point of bo= iling the gas will push liquid fuel down hill and behind the firewall, isolating the gaseous gas with its heat at the top of the line.  Turn= ing the pumps on will pressurize the line to 55psi, returning most of the g= aseous fuel back to a liquid state.  The ECM is programmed for a longe= r clearing pulse on hot start.

The point of the bleed is to allow fu= el to move back to the tank.  I had the issue of a the pressurized lin= es being perfectly sealed.  The pressurized fuel was finding the path = of least resistance out, which just happened to be out the injector and int= o the intake manifold where it sat as a little puddle.  Heat soaking t= he lines would not push liquid fuel downhill and back behind the firewall. =  It would push more fuel into the manifold.  A puddle of gas sitt= ing in a composite manifold, just above a hot exhaust stack is just bad moj= o.  A poorly sealed regulator allows the pressure to bleed off in abou= t 5 seconds (give or take), isolating the hot fuel in front of the firewall, and keeping the rest cool and out of the intake manifold.
Got nuthin' to do with vapor lock.

--
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