X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.145] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5095574 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:37:44 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.145; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.99] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2011 00:37:08 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.90] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2011 00:37:08 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1027.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2011 00:37:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 625181.55895.bm@omp1027.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 90956 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Aug 2011 00:37:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1313627828; bh=Uw4dMd3JY/MeKmKhzxP7q/slsIkxQx2rSzCHTJLAL0o=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=fx1u308jvTaL1oEIe7nX214B5DhMWNkQLfALPFMU1aLuHGXU04Xw9JIOZOh1H5rs2PLkWgetPj9WtMxwuIzDYtQ4Hxbvd1LtMlNqaKvuZiKMMXt6e01YRCVw59g9/zX6eGdbmGIiQeRk+QWKJ96+h9o42GHcEAzLttIED5K7QO4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=0WEt0b2laCg78sbOPxKAVmyqAuCNmWW5nhcf37UILHeSM+Y1sTx/+t9qDRLB7+IIzwsPI3CB7vHMRcn8nZUEIsvwuCmL3wD5Ra9c8o466c6KXvQTj3t5NQuIDLkKN0k/7Ipd66rkcbYUWicSsPgx+bDLs30+3G6XSy2s7i7sDUk=; X-YMail-OSG: 3KroGt0VM1mYB6hG.eLno6VdR5B2U9j4QulCqMzha9jKDN9 kLYxX1_RS5YzKky3CzN1eAEKg9wGpKcT1Y51mNMbdIR64XHqnoQbq4hf4JKi TF6HdcB5EtpIx7Q4oY_FRZnNfBd08swb..WoAuRQAtMnSrP1fAw95Rs_Rdfk rJ3htHnT_DIVLoDh7DG74MC06.aEhYG4nZSBnj4JDHzMjTtbbm5dHGX9ZcdP xRcyBrlgKyUTET3GC5ktffzxfSmOM7jO_DCFhjNvIKpSXX.CLBbS1ILAG3RI M3mUz91f9OXm68dYaZ6i1e_MI9Qu1w7lwlINVMFh3X_MwJar8C_0eoMsuto5 0do78xxLfmfAd0V8S2N1q84cw7H8gZBXcLlL96NyR2iPfA4kYhnkeSIDK83r I9HqwduT8roTykhL6j8NxwHqNMV2OCl_Rae9YfW_M3jjbs5JLymY613HSEx8 7LX8.1TLJF_FOyiyd7IM5akp4N1a_xg43boAgPLw1cKlOfPVrZ0AHb2X5RWL s4Zy87ttoRxYrij.ajNwPLTI- Received: from [208.114.47.38] by web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:37:08 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1313627828.80660.YahooMailNeo@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:37:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1534866012-1313627828=:80660" --0-1534866012-1313627828=:80660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,=0A=A0=A0=A0 What make were the pumps.........The only Gerotor fuel pu= mps I saw were Holley=0Acarb pumps (about 15 psi max pressure) ??..........= .....=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Eng= ine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"= _TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft =0ASent: Wednesday, August 17,= 2011 6:54 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or a= ny others, for that matter.=0A=0A=0ATracy,=A0 =0A=0AWhat type of pumps are = the pumps that you carry, vane? =A0I was looking today on Summit Racing's s= ite and saw a "gerotor" pump. =A0This is the type pump Mazda uses for the r= otary's oil pump. =A0It was more than twice the price, but it looks like it= would tolerate dry running much better than the vane style does. =A0So, I'= m wondering if this might be a better choice for those that routinely run t= heir tanks dry before switching to the other tank. =A0I'd hate to ruin a pu= mp at 14,000msl with lots of fuel in the other tank, but unable to get it t= o the injectors.=0A=0AMark S.=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Trac= y wrote:=0A=0AJust a cautionary note on that testing.= =A0=A0 If you do the run tank dry test that Mark suggested,=A0 make the 'dr= y run' portion of the test as short as possible. =A0 Auto mechanics love pe= ople to run their tanks dry because it's good for business.=A0 The lifespan= of the pump when dry is VERY short.=0A>=0A>Better never to run the tank dr= y. =A0 That was a big reason I used a Facet transfer pump to the EFI feed t= ank.=A0 You never have to run a tank dry to get the last drop before runnin= g the EFI pump dry.=0A>=0A>Tracy =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12= :19 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:=0A>=0A>Al,=0A>>=0A>>I woul= d think that a well-designed=A0fuel system=A0with the pumps located as low = as possible, in a=A0cool area,=A0and=A0a return system=A0should not be trou= bled with vapor locking.=A0=A0Although I guess it could happen in Death Val= ley in=A0August if the a/c is left out in the sun for 8 hours, and running = auto gas.=A0 So far, I haven't had any problem here in Texas (temps 105* to= day).=A0 =A0 =0A>>=0A>>My purpose for installing the bypass circuit was mor= e critical to safe flight.=A0 (The solution was=A0the result of a forced la= nding, or two,=A0in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)=A0 During ground = runs, using a 5-gallon can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not resto= re pressure once the tank had been allowed to run dry.=A0=A0When this occur= red, the EFI pump=A0would suck a big slug of air into the inlet side of the= pump, loose pressure,=A0and being unable to build psi equal to the pressur= e regulator setting, it would stop pumping fuel (vapor lock).=A0 The only w= ay to restore operation was to crack open the system downstream of the pump= until the slug of air could be passed on through the fuel pump.=A0=A0Not s= ure this meets your definiton of "vapor lock", but I think it does, but for= a different reason than fuel vapor pressure.=0A>>=0A>>I have tested this s= ystem on the ground and it works as advertized.=A0 If the tank runs dry, sw= itched to a full tank, the efi pump will restore pressure to the system wit= hin a few seconds.=A0 I urge all builders to run this test on their fuel sy= stem to determine whether or not their pumps are able to restore pressure a= fter running a tank dry.=A0 Or, just don't ever run a tank dry.=0A>>=0A>>Ma= rk S.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=A0=0A>>On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ernest Christ= ley wrote:=0A>>=0A>>Al Wick wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>I'm real= ly concerned for some of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to = do with vapor lock. Virtually no effect at all.=0A>>>>=A0=0A>>>>=0A>>>I don= 't know why others are doing it, but for me, the bleed has nothing at all t= o do with vapor lock. =A0Some conversations have been mixed together, so I = can see how that could be the impression. =A0The point of the pressure blee= d is to bleed off the pressure after shutdown.=0A>>>=0A>>>I have a strong, = positive head pressure going into my pumps. =A0They, and the regulator, are= about 8" directly below the tank. =A0Excess fuel goes back to the opposite= side of the tank from the pickup, and a single line goes forward to feed t= he injectors. =A0The fuel lines are arranged such that heat soaking the lin= es to the point of boiling the gas will push liquid fuel down hill and behi= nd the firewall, isolating the gaseous gas with its heat at the top of the = line. =A0Turning the pumps on will pressurize the line to 55psi, returning = most of the gaseous fuel back to a liquid state. =A0The ECM is programmed f= or a longer clearing pulse on hot start.=0A>>>=0A>>>The point of the bleed = is to allow fuel to move back to the tank. =A0I had the issue of a the pres= surized lines being perfectly sealed. =A0The pressurized fuel was finding t= he path of least resistance out, which just happened to be out the injector= and into the intake manifold where it sat as a little puddle. =A0Heat soak= ing the lines would not push liquid fuel downhill and back behind the firew= all. =A0It would push more fuel into the manifold. =A0A puddle of gas sitti= ng in a composite manifold, just above a hot exhaust stack is just bad mojo= . =A0A poorly sealed regulator allows the pressure to bleed off in about 5 = seconds (give or take), isolating the hot fuel in front of the firewall, an= d keeping the rest cool and out of the intake manifold.=0A>>>=0A>>>Got nuth= in' to do with vapor lock.=0A>>>=0A>>>--=0A>>>Homepage: =A0http://www.flyro= tary.com/=0A>>>Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/list= s/flyrotary/List.html=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>=0A=0A--=0AHomepage:=A0 http://www.flyr= otary.com/=0AArchive and UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/f= lyrotary/List.html --0-1534866012-1313627828=:80660 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
    W= hat make were the pumps.........The only Gerotor fuel pumps I saw were Holl= ey
carb pumps (about 15= psi max pressure) ??...............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent:= Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:54 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any o= thers, for that matter.

Tracy, 

What type of pumps are the pumps that you carry, vane?  I was loo= king today on Summit Racing's site and saw a "gerotor" pump.  This is = the type pump Mazda uses for the rotary's oil pump.  It was more than = twice the price, but it looks like it would tolerate dry running much bette= r than the vane style does.  So, I'm wondering if this might be a bett= er choice for those that routinely run their tanks dry before switching to = the other tank.  I'd hate to ruin a pump at 14,000msl with lots of fue= l in the other tank, but unable to get it to the injectors.

Mark S.

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Trac= y <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a cautionary not= e on that testing.   If you do the run tank dry test that Mark su= ggested,  make the 'dry run' portion of the test as short as possible.=   Auto mechanics love people to run their tanks dry because it's good= for business.  The lifespan of the pump when dry is VERY short.
Better never to run the tank dry.   That was a big reason I used a F= acet transfer pump to the EFI feed tank.  You never have to run a tank= dry to get the last drop before running the EFI pump dry.

Tracy

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Mar= k Steitle <msteitle@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Al,
 
I would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pump= s located as low as possible, in a cool area, and a return s= ystem should not be troubled with vapor locking.  Although I= guess it could happen in Death Valley in August if the a/c is left ou= t in the sun for 8 hours, and running auto gas.  So far, I haven't had= any problem here in Texas (temps 105* today).   
 
My purpose for installing the bypass circuit was more critical to safe= flight.  (The solution was the result of a forced landing, or tw= o, in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)  During ground runs, = using a 5-gallon can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not restore pre= ssure once the tank had been allowed to run dry.  When this occur= red, the EFI pump would suck a big slug of air into the inlet side of = the pump, loose pressure, and being unable to build psi equal to the p= ressure regulator setting, it would stop pumping fuel (vapor lock).  T= he only way to restore operation was to crack open the system downstream of= the pump until the slug of air could be passed on through the fuel pump.&n= bsp; Not sure this meets your definiton of "vapor lock", but I think i= t does, but for a different reason than fuel vapor pressure.
 
I have tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized.&nb= sp; If the tank runs dry, switched to a full tank, the efi pump will restor= e pressure to the system within a few seconds.  I urge all builders to= run this test on their fuel system to determine whether or not their pumps= are able to restore pressure after running a tank dry.  Or, just don'= t ever run a tank dry.
 
Mark S.


 
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ern= est Christley <echristle= y@att.net> wrote:
Al Wick wrote:
I'm really concerned = for some of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to do with vapor= lock. Virtually no effect at all.
 

I do= n't know why others are doing it, but for me, the bleed has nothing at all = to do with vapor lock.  Some conversations have been mixed together, s= o I can see how that could be the impression.  The point of the pressu= re bleed is to bleed off the pressure after shutdown.

I have a stron= g, positive head pressure going into my pumps.  They, and the regulato= r, are about 8" directly below the tank.  Excess fuel goes back to the= opposite side of the tank from the pickup, and a single line goes forward = to feed the injectors.  The fuel lines are arranged such that heat soa= king the lines to the point of boiling the gas will push liquid fuel down hill and behind the firewall, isolating the gaseous gas with its heat= at the top of the line.  Turning the pumps on will pressurize the lin= e to 55psi, returning most of the gaseous fuel back to a liquid state. &nbs= p;The ECM is programmed for a longer clearing pulse on hot start.

Th= e point of the bleed is to allow fuel to move back to the tank.  I had= the issue of a the pressurized lines being perfectly sealed.  The pre= ssurized fuel was finding the path of least resistance out, which just happ= ened to be out the injector and into the intake manifold where it sat as a = little puddle.  Heat soaking the lines would not push liquid fuel down= hill and back behind the firewall.  It would push more fuel into the m= anifold.  A puddle of gas sitting in a composite manifold, just above = a hot exhaust stack is just bad mojo.  A poorly sealed regulator allow= s the pressure to bleed off in about 5 seconds (give or take), isolating the hot fuel in front of the firewall, and keeping the rest cool= and out of the intake manifold.

Got nuthin' to do with vapor lock.<= BR>
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/<= BR>Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancai= ronline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
=




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