X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.132] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5041893 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Jul 2011 09:56:40 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.132; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.101] by nm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2011 13:56:04 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.86] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2011 13:56:04 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2011 13:56:04 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 8135.5699.bm@omp1023.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 96830 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Jul 2011 13:56:03 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1309787763; bh=VdsaxxkFLB3YxAnE39gH8wace1HzQMdL8jrjhAAgBLU=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=qoFPIpdntmITA3JoOUwfRGCM81eRTotobMSF6tvlg++eheS4MeRI2y1GLNIkprJDixONBtSXx5I2i1LPztLF3IRI+tQf1z9s5WC5p4iDxdh+ppZsTAJBpvI6AyIMjmvhe6ywNdjmfj9YPDBZKaKbZinSDYz0z3MyEVpCHJnpLVE= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=e2k7zpnO8EEKr0TIVYX1mDs8ptLAcvSRDgnsDPx04VfBnI5PjtBU9ZuDzkVF+JzFwtU/CWNWkw64KYpxr/LLirobD7djUBFIecByDIi7qWtMShC/w3ti5nLp9Dlo3ipqgNXEKi5DnFVPwPNmYPpn6Ar4J/KYxMf2SSsb3RKGaE0=; X-YMail-OSG: xghSZxcVM1kCJRYzykkqqUgP0SL4tP52Ig9IgWWBUFmANIL aHlfHQFEvJ0n9XZjGJgPywtZ5quOCamQA4f4zB.4IJcoB_CWkpI7GRT7k4mt lgsnG5HYGusqp_ovkyB5wGnpjTa28e_gD5rDcvHO90F1JscRgq4PP3y5NNvu BULL.qHzqGDmyvRpo5Jywgy2yoApyrmrk8ESnoFUw11QjIeHDCh3yLvyHK7J rWjhz4HHmC2N2MLzCO2H3cy3NHaN2JNaPP6p6y89WKLon_DijdT0PQLnZsLS Uf611jzjWvdFq8r7.84VYnazbabz3Vm7e_1Ey._xcLxkcMUpD7YYctC8bOYh xX0oWzb4zHFUEPfAk Received: from [208.114.39.18] by web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Jul 2011 06:56:03 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: Message-ID: <1309787763.55229.YahooMailNeo@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 06:56:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Leaking injectors? To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-91256396-1309787763=:55229" --0-91256396-1309787763=:55229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes I agree Mark.............The ability to clear an air lock and reprime t= he pumps=A0is much=A0more important =0Athan a potential flooding problem wh= ich is a pain in the xxzz but at least you are on the ground and is not=0Al= ife threatening..............So am with you that all our flying fuel system= s should incorporate the bypass as it =0Ais a simple and proven way to make= sure you can get fuel to the engine after running a tank dry !!...........= .=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine= =0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO= 4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors= in aircraft =0ASent: Monday, July 4, 2011 5:2= 8 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors?=0A=0A=0AKelly,=A0 =0A=0A= Yes, the crossover is good for handling a leaky injector, but IMHO the more= important feature is to ensure that you can get a re-start if you run a ta= nk dry. =A0As I stated earlier, the Eggenfellner bunch had this problem and= fixed it with the crossover circuit. =A0EFI pumps aren't very good at suck= ing/pumping air. =A0That's why I incorporated a crossover circuit into my f= uel system. =A0I make it a rule to never run a tank completely dry, but if = it happens, I can rest assured that I can get fuel pressure restored again = by switching tanks.=0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Kell= y Troyer wrote:=0A=0AI agree Mark=A0!!.........I never had= flooding problems again after installing the by-pass on=0A>my well worn=A0= 88 RX7.................On an auto you do not have the ability to shut down = the=0A>fuel pump as has been suggested plus as Steve noted=A0even that was = not enough to=A0=0A>keep an extremely worn injector from leaking enough to = cause=A0=A0flooding.............=A0=0A>=A0=0A>Thanks to all of the group th= at shared their ideas and "Real World Experiences"........=0A>This is what= =A0sets this group apart from some on the net............You guys (and girl= s)=A0 =0A>freely share your trials and tribulations whether successful or f= ailures so your fellow =0A>"Rotorheads" do not have to reinvent the wheel= =A0...............=0A>=0A>=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)= =0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil M= anifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>From: Mark Steitle =0A>=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 9:48 PM =0A>=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e: Leaking injectors?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>...and another good argument for havin= g a bleed-bypass circuit. =A0;-) =0A>=0A>=0A>Mark=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sun, Jul 3,= 2011 at 9:13 PM, Steven W. Boese wrote:=0A>=0A>My standa= rd shutdown procedure has always been to cut the power to the fuel pumps un= til the engine stops and then shut down the power to the rest of the system= .=A0 In early May, after sitting overnight at an airport away from home, th= e engine started on only one rotor and then started to run on both rotors a= fter a few seconds.=A0 It did this twice more after being shut down at leas= t overnight.=A0 Finally, the engine refused to start at all.=A0 Removing th= e spark plugs indicated a flooded condition, much more evident on rotor one= =A0than rotor two.=A0 Removing the injectors and pressurizing them on my in= jector test rail, the primary injector of rotor one leaked fuel at a slow d= rip and the secondary injector of rotor two would form a drop of fuel that = would evaporate fast enough that it didn't actually drip.=A0 The other two = injectors remained dry.=A0 Since all=A0those injectors were most likely the= original ones from 1986 and had well over 100,000 miles before use in the aircraft, I replaced them with new ones from RC Engineering.=A0 I h= aven't had flooding problems since the replacement.=A0 Apparently, there=A0= was enough fuel that could leak through the injectors and cause flooding ev= en after the shutdown procedure that involved killing the engine by shuttin= g off the fuel pumps.=A0 Probably, heat soaking the firewall forward=A0fuel= lines and fuel after shutdown resulted in pressure buildup and enough fuel= leaking through the worn injectors to cause a problem.=A0 Just my recent e= xperience for what it is worth.=0A>>=0A>>Steve Boese=0A>>RV6A, 1986 13B NA,= RD1A, EC2=0A>>=A0 =0A>>From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net] on behalf of Charlie England [ceengland@bellsouth.net]=0A>>Sent:= Sunday, July 03, 2011 1:59 PM=0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I think that the idea i= s to shut down the pump(s) with the engine running. The injectors will cont= inue to do their thing, & the engine quits when pressure drops too low to f= low through the open injectors.=0A>>=0A>>Charlie=0A>>=0A>>On 07/03/2011 02:= 28 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A>>No !!...........The check valve is located = in the inlet to the pump and will hold regulated=A0pressure=0A>>>=0A>>>inde= finately or until relieved by=A0leaky injectors or the afore mentioned bypa= ss sysrem.........=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventu= ally)=0A>>>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>>"MISTRAL"_Back= plate/Oil Manifold=0A>>>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: E= rnest Christley =0A>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 2:15 PM=0A>>>Sub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors?=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>On 07/02/2011 09:= 52 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A>>>Ernest,=0A>>>>=A0=A0=A0 Your=A0EFI fuel pu= mps have a check valve in them and will hold regulated=A0pressure=0A>>>>for= a long time or until leaky injectors relieve this pressure..........Short = of replacing=0A>>>>the injectors the=A0fix is to put a pressure relief orif= ice from the fuel=A0pressure line=A0to =0A>>>>the=A0fuel return line...=0A>= >>>=0A>>>Shouldn't shutting down by cutting power to the fuel pump relieve = the pressure, though?=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A> --0-91256396-1309787763=:55229 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes I agree Mark............= .The ability to clear an air lock and reprime the pumps is much&= nbsp;more important
than a potential flooding problem which is a pain in the xxz= z but at least you are on the ground and is not
life threatening....= ..........So am with you that all our flying fuel systems should incorporat= e the bypass as it
is a simple and prov= en way to make sure you can get fuel to the engine after running a tank dry= !!............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent:= Monday, July 4, 2011 5:28 AM
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors?

Kelly, 

Yes, the crossover is good for handling a leaky injector, but IMHO the= more important feature is to ensure that you can get a re-start if you run= a tank dry.  As I stated earlier, the Eggenfellner bunch had this pro= blem and fixed it with the crossover circuit.  EFI pumps aren't very g= ood at sucking/pumping air.  That's why I incorporated a crossover cir= cuit into my fuel system.  I make it a rule to never run a tank comple= tely dry, but if it happens, I can rest assured that I can get fuel pressur= e restored again by switching tanks.

Mark

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Kell= y Troyer <keltro@att.net>= wrote:
I agree Mark !!.........I never had flooding problems again= after installing the by-pass on
my well worn 88 RX7.................On an auto you do not h= ave the ability to shut down the
fuel pump as has been suggested plus as Steve noted even th= at was not enough to 
keep an extremely worn injector from leaking enough to cause&nbs= p; flooding............. 
 
Thanks to all of the group that shared their ideas and "Real Wor= ld Experiences"........
This is what sets this group apart from some on the net....= ........You guys (and girls) 
freely share your trials and tribulations whether s= uccessful or failures so your fellow
"Rotorheads" do not have to reinvent the wheel = ;...............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>

To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 9:48 PM

Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors?

...and another good argument for having a bleed-bypass circuit.  = ;-)=20

Mark

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu> wrote:
My standard shutdown procedure has always been to cut the power to the= fuel pumps until the engine stops and then shut down the power to the rest= of the system.  In early May, after sitting overnight at an airport a= way from home, the engine started on only one rotor and then started to run= on both rotors after a few seconds.  It did this twice more after bei= ng shut down at least overnight.  Finally, the engine refused to start= at all.  Removing the spark plugs indicated a flooded condition, much= more evident on rotor one than rotor two.  Removing the injector= s and pressurizing them on my injector test rail, the primary injector of r= otor one leaked fuel at a slow drip and the secondary injector of rotor two= would form a drop of fuel that would evaporate fast enough that it didn't = actually drip.  The other two injectors remained dry.  Since all&= nbsp;those injectors were most likely the original ones from 1986 and had well over 100,000 miles before use in the aircraft, I replaced the= m with new ones from RC Engineering.  I haven't had flooding problems = since the replacement.  Apparently, there was enough fuel that co= uld leak through the injectors and cause flooding even after the shutdown p= rocedure that involved killing the engine by shutting off the fuel pumps.&n= bsp; Probably, heat soaking the firewall forward fuel lines and fuel a= fter shutdown resulted in pressure buildup and enough fuel leaking through = the worn injectors to cause a problem.  Just my recent experience for = what it is worth.
 
Steve Boese<= /FONT>
RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2
=
 
= From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Charlie Englan= d [ceengland@bellsouth.net]Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 1:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors?
<= BR>
I think that the idea is to shut down the pump(s) with the engine runn= ing. The injectors will continue to do their thing, & the engine quits = when pressure drops too low to flow through the open injectors.

Char= lie

On 07/03/2011 02:28 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=20
No !!...........The check valve is located in the inlet to the p= ump and will hold regulated pressure
indefinately or until relieved by leaky injectors or the afore me= ntioned bypass sysrem.........
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

= From: Ernest Christley <echri= stley@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 2:15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors?
On 07/02/2011 09:52 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=20
Ernest,
    Your EFI= fuel pumps have a check valve in them and will hold regulated = pressure
for a long time or until leaky injectors relieve this pressure..= ........Short of replacing=
the injectors the fix is to put a pressure relief orifice from the fuel press= ure line  to
the fuel return line...
=

Shouldn't shutting down by cutting power to the fuel pump = relieve the pressure, though?






<= /DIV>


<= BR> --0-91256396-1309787763=:55229--