X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.144] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4987428 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 May 2011 09:55:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.144; envelope-from=Bktrub@aol.com Received: from imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (imo-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.137]) by imr-da02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p4IDt0el011942 for ; Wed, 18 May 2011 09:55:00 -0400 Received: from Bktrub@aol.com by imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.104a.6ff8ef9 (55737) for ; Wed, 18 May 2011 09:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-md03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-md03.mx.aol.com [64.12.143.156]) by cia-md04.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD044-d4364dd3cfaa2da; Wed, 18 May 2011 09:54:57 -0400 Received: from webmail-d134 (webmail-d134.sim.aol.com [149.174.18.24]) by smtprly-md03.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMD035-d4364dd3cfaa2da; Wed, 18 May 2011 09:54:50 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 09:54:50 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 50.46.100.112 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CDE37A4A88952F_1CC0_3555D_webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33668-STANDARD Received: from 50.46.100.112 by webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com (149.174.18.24) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Wed, 18 May 2011 09:54:50 -0400 Message-Id: <8CDE37A4A70C75B-1CC0-27443@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Bktrub@aol.com ----------MB_8CDE37A4A88952F_1CC0_3555D_webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Yes, good point, that's the one thing I neglected to look at and record wh= ile tuning yesterday. Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 4:56 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Ok, different size (smaller) primary injectors can change things a bit.= =20 =20 I run four 42 lb/hour injectors, so that gives me more total flow capacit= y and so would presumably require less injector open time and therefore sm= aller MCT values than you give you have 2 28 lb primary injectors. Howeve= r, since you do have the O2 sensor and monitor, I would certainly look to= using that to help you tune. I have not found anything better to aid in= tuning. =20 =20 Ed From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 12:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Ok, that is interesting. I forgot to mention that I am running 28 lb prima= ries and 40 lb secondaries. Looks like I will be doing some more setting= of the tables and experimentation.=20 =20 I do have an O2 sensor and monitor, so I'll be looking at that also. =20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 8:28 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Hi Brian, =20 I have my fuel MAP values and comments (in blue) buried in your spread she= et. IF I had to make a stab at this point and quick look, I would say you= are probably running excessively rich at your higher map values > bin poi= nter 75 < bin pointer 103. See my notes. I took my MAP values (turbo blo= ck street ported - good intake - no turbo) and converted them to your refe= rence - that column is in blue is my value for direct comparison with your= s. Some places we different but it probably doesn't really matter - in ot= her areas where we differ, you are running considerably richer than my eng= ine. =20 I have the 2.84:1 gear box swinging a 74x88 prop and consistently get 6000= rpm static on a normal day and can get up to 6200 on a colder day. My fu= el flow will range from 16.5-18 GPH on take off and has hit 20 GPH on a co= ld day. I use a 91 Turbo block street ported sans turbocharger. I have a= fairly decent intake system (about the sixth version - so I did quite a= bit of experimentation to get it right and I think it=E2=80=99s a pretty= descent intake) =20 Do you have an air/fuel ratio indicator? If so I suggest you run your eng= ine at some of those bin numbers and record what it is telling you (lean,= Medium Rich, etc). While at higher Manifold pressure you do want an air/= fuel ratio running closer to 12.5:1, I suspect your air/fuel ratio may be= even richer than that. Now all of these comments apply to bin/manifold= pressures in the non-boosted range < bin 103 or so. =20 Take a look at my notes - it is possible your problem could be too rich.= Too much fuel in your mufflers getting ignited can certainly produce a= loud bang. Perhaps ignition could also cause it, but right now it appear= s to me you are simply way too rich between bins 75-103. If you have an= air/fuel ratio indicator, I would try reducing the mixture in those areas= . =20 Hope this helps =20 Ed From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Ed, Attached is my map table as of today after I tuned it tied down on the gr= ound. I have a 93 13BREW that is normally aspirated, it has 9.1/1 compress= ion, swinging a catto 74 dia x 88 pitch prop through a 2.85/1 PSRU. This= EC2 is set up to accomodate turbo engines, so I have addresses that go up= to 38 inHg. They are not used. =20 I generally idle at MAP address 11 mp of 14.9 inHg. at around 1600rpm. Th= is is a 60 degree day at barometer setting of 30.3. Advancing the throttle= , the EC2 switches over to the high RPM table at MAP address 17 (mp 17.2),= going straight to address 80. My staging point is 84 (mp 19.1) from there= up to full throttle, MAP address 106 mp 29.1, the transition is smooth.= At full throttle on the ground I'm getting 5200 RPM. When I go much past= that RPM on takeoff, that's when the missing starts. I'm still guessing= that I need to richen up the mixture in the addresses above 106.=20 =20 Any input from anyone on this would be appreciated. =20 Brian Trubee =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 3:18 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian, what values do you have in your fuel map around 90-105? I have= values of 172 for WOT and at times (cool OAT) I have to enrichen the mixt= ure beyond that with the manual mixture control =20 Ed From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 5:35 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to= put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idl= e up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off,= it seems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get= hellacious backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by thrott= ling back to about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full ric= h. It's getting to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got= it smoothed out and then get a series of hand grenades going off under my= butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running too lean up at map address 106= or so. So, I go into the edit page and richen up the mixture around those= addresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full throttle running. =20 The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so= the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet= a bit or restrict the outflow. =20 Brian Trubee =3D=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html -- omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html ----------MB_8CDE37A4A88952F_1CC0_3555D_webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Yes, good point, that's the one thing I neglected to look at and reco= rd while tuning yesterday.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 4:56 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Ok, different size (smaller) primary injectors&nbs= p; can change things a bit. 
 
 I run four 42 lb/hour injectors, so that giv= es me more total flow capacity and so would presumably require less inject= or open time and therefore smaller MCT values than you give you have 2 28= lb primary injectors.  However, since you do have the O2 sensor and= monitor, I would certainly look to using that to help you tune. I have no= t found anything better to aid in tuning. 
 
Ed

Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 12:02 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine= Tuning

Ok, that is interesting. I forgot to mention that I am running 28 lb= primaries and 40 lb secondaries. Looks like I will be doing some more set= ting of the tables and experimentation.
 
I do have an O2 sensor and monitor, so I'll be looking at that also.<= /div>
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanders= on@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 8:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Hi Brian,
 
I have my fuel MAP values and comments (in blue)= buried in your spread sheet.  IF I had to make a stab at this point= and quick look, I would say you are probably running excessively rich at= your higher map values > bin pointer 75 < bin pointer 103.  Se= e my notes.  I took my MAP values (turbo block street ported - good= intake - no turbo) and converted them to your reference - that column is= in blue is my value for direct comparison with yours.  Some pla= ces we different but it probably doesn't really matter - in other areas wh= ere we differ, you are running considerably richer than my engine.<= /div>
 
I have the 2.84:1 gear box swinging a 74x88 prop= and consistently get 6000 rpm static on a normal day and can get up to 62= 00 on a colder day.  My fuel flow will range from 16.5-18 GPH on take= off and has hit 20 GPH on a cold day. I use a 91 Turbo block street porte= d sans turbocharger.  I have a fairly decent intake system (about the= sixth version - so I did quite a bit of experimentation to get it right= and I think it=E2=80=99s a pretty descent intake)
 
Do you have an air/fuel ratio indicator?  If= so I suggest you run your engine at some of those bin numbers and record= what it is telling you (lean, Medium Rich, etc).  While at higher Ma= nifold pressure you do want an air/fuel ratio running closer to 12.5:1, I= suspect your air/fuel ratio may be even richer than that.  Now all= of these comments apply to bin/manifold pressures in the non-boosted rang= e < bin 103 or so.
 
Take a look at my notes - it is possible your prob= lem could be too rich.  Too much fuel in your mufflers getting ignite= d can certainly produce a loud bang.  Perhaps ignition could also cau= se it, but right now it appears to me you are simply way too rich between= bins 75-103.  If you have an air/fuel ratio indicator, I would try= reducing the mixture in those areas.
 
Hope this helps
 
Ed

Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Ed,
Attached is my map table as of today after I tuned it tied down  = ;on the ground. I have a 93 13BREW that is normally aspirated, it has 9.1/= 1 compression, swinging a catto 74 dia x 88 pitch prop through a 2.85/1 PS= RU. This EC2 is set up to accomodate turbo engines, so I have address= es that go up to 38 inHg. They are  not used.
 
 I generally idle at MAP address 11 mp of 14.9 inHg. at aro= und 1600rpm. This is a 60 degree day at barometer setting of 30.3. Advanci= ng the throttle, the EC2 switches over to the high RPM table at MAP a= ddress 17 (mp 17.2), going straight to address 80. My staging point is 84= (mp 19.1) from there up to full throttle, MAP address 106 mp 29.1, the tr= ansition is smooth. At full throttle on the ground I'm getting 5200 RPM.= When I go much past that RPM on takeoff, that's when the missing starts.= I'm still guessing that I need to richen up the mixture in the addresses= above 106.
 
Any input from anyone on this would be appreciated.
 
Brian Trubee
 


 


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanders= on@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 3:18 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

 Brian, what values do you have in your fuel= map around 90-105?   I have values of 172 for WOT and at times= (cool OAT) I have to enrichen the mixture beyond that with the manual mix= ture control
 
Ed

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 5:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning


Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to= put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idl= e up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off,= it seems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get= hellacious backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by thrott= ling back to about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full ric= h. It's getting to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got= it smoothed out and then get a series of hand grenades going off under my= butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running too lean up at map address 106= or so. So, I go into the edit page and richen up the mixture around those= addresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full throttle running.
 
The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less-= so the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inl= et a bit or restrict the outflow.
 
Brian Trubee
=3D=20
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