X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4987286 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 May 2011 07:56:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=aeMH4JcVOnVr0LmJAzqEvfnmJyuaZufWdlng4HTRGCk= c=1 sm=0 a=BFZTxywLTAcA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=uLG2MEi_lCOYhnk9jIsA:9 a=ib40oNNf9GklimkB6QIA:7 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=NUCrf9hiKvI3RcR1:21 a=vK5iTR-dbx4XiBjJ:21 a=MIPbhobv8OC6WppxEZQA:9 a=5h8n5csMepCMtDoDGm0A:7 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:62561] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 7C/ED-03893-2E3B3DD4; Wed, 18 May 2011 11:56:18 +0000 Message-ID: <0BE82ED1B87140349330885DBACC889E@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 07:56:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01CC1531.0D3BB7A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01CC1531.0D3BB7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, different size (smaller) primary injectors can change things a bit. = I run four 42 lb/hour injectors, so that gives me more total flow = capacity and so would presumably require less injector open time and = therefore smaller MCT values than you give you have 2 28 lb primary = injectors. However, since you do have the O2 sensor and monitor, I = would certainly look to using that to help you tune. I have not found = anything better to aid in tuning. =20 Ed From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 12:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Ok, that is interesting. I forgot to mention that I am running 28 lb = primaries and 40 lb secondaries. Looks like I will be doing some more = setting of the tables and experimentation.=20 I do have an O2 sensor and monitor, so I'll be looking at that also. Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 8:28 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Hi Brian, I have my fuel MAP values and comments (in blue) buried in your spread = sheet. IF I had to make a stab at this point and quick look, I would = say you are probably running excessively rich at your higher map values = > bin pointer 75 < bin pointer 103. See my notes. I took my MAP values = (turbo block street ported - good intake - no turbo) and converted them = to your reference - that column is in blue is my value for direct = comparison with yours. Some places we different but it probably doesn't = really matter - in other areas where we differ, you are running = considerably richer than my engine. I have the 2.84:1 gear box swinging a 74x88 prop and consistently get = 6000 rpm static on a normal day and can get up to 6200 on a colder day. = My fuel flow will range from 16.5-18 GPH on take off and has hit 20 GPH = on a cold day. I use a 91 Turbo block street ported sans turbocharger. = I have a fairly decent intake system (about the sixth version - so I did = quite a bit of experimentation to get it right and I think it=E2=80=99s = a pretty descent intake) Do you have an air/fuel ratio indicator? If so I suggest you run your = engine at some of those bin numbers and record what it is telling you = (lean, Medium Rich, etc). While at higher Manifold pressure you do want = an air/fuel ratio running closer to 12.5:1, I suspect your air/fuel = ratio may be even richer than that. Now all of these comments apply to = bin/manifold pressures in the non-boosted range < bin 103 or so. Take a look at my notes - it is possible your problem could be too rich. = Too much fuel in your mufflers getting ignited can certainly produce a = loud bang. Perhaps ignition could also cause it, but right now it = appears to me you are simply way too rich between bins 75-103. If you = have an air/fuel ratio indicator, I would try reducing the mixture in = those areas. Hope this helps Ed From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Ed, Attached is my map table as of today after I tuned it tied down on the = ground. I have a 93 13BREW that is normally aspirated, it has 9.1/1 = compression, swinging a catto 74 dia x 88 pitch prop through a 2.85/1 = PSRU. This EC2 is set up to accomodate turbo engines, so I have = addresses that go up to 38 inHg. They are not used. I generally idle at MAP address 11 mp of 14.9 inHg. at around 1600rpm. = This is a 60 degree day at barometer setting of 30.3. Advancing the = throttle, the EC2 switches over to the high RPM table at MAP address 17 = (mp 17.2), going straight to address 80. My staging point is 84 (mp = 19.1) from there up to full throttle, MAP address 106 mp 29.1, the = transition is smooth. At full throttle on the ground I'm getting 5200 = RPM. When I go much past that RPM on takeoff, that's when the missing = starts. I'm still guessing that I need to richen up the mixture in the = addresses above 106.=20 Any input from anyone on this would be appreciated. Brian Trubee =20 -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 3:18 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian, what values do you have in your fuel map around 90-105? I have = values of 172 for WOT and at times (cool OAT) I have to enrichen the = mixture beyond that with the manual mixture control Ed From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 5:35 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity = to put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an = idle up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take = off, it seems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, = I get hellacious backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by = throttling back to about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near = full rich. It's getting to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking = I've got it smoothed out and then get a series of hand grenades going = off under my butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running too lean up at = map address 106 or so. So, I go into the edit page and richen up the = mixture around those addresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full = throttle running. The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so = the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet = a bit or restrict the outflow. Brian Trubee =3D=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01CC1531.0D3BB7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, different size (smaller) primary = injectors  can=20 change things a bit. 
 
 I run four 42 lb/hour injectors, so that = gives me=20 more total flow capacity and so would presumably require less injector = open time=20 and therefore smaller MCT values than you give you have 2 28 lb primary=20 injectors.  However, since you do have the O2 sensor and monitor, I = would=20 certainly look to using that to help you tune. I have not found anything = better=20 to aid in tuning. 
 
Ed

Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 12:02 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: = Engine=20 Tuning

Ok, that is interesting. I forgot to mention that I am running 28 = lb=20 primaries and 40 lb secondaries. Looks like I will be doing some more = setting of=20 the tables and experimentation.
 
I do have an O2 sensor and monitor, so I'll be looking at that = also.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Tue, May=20 17, 2011 8:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Your Fuel Map: [FlyRotary] Re: = Engine=20 Tuning

Hi Brian,
 
I have my fuel MAP values and comments (in blue) = buried in=20 your spread sheet.  IF I had to make a stab at this point and quick = look, I=20 would say you are probably running excessively rich at your higher map = values=20 > bin pointer 75 < bin pointer 103.  See my notes.  I = took my=20 MAP values (turbo block street ported - good intake - no turbo) and = converted=20 them to your reference - that column is in blue is my value for = direct=20 comparison with yours.  Some places we different but it probably = doesn't=20 really matter - in other areas where we differ, you are running = considerably=20 richer than my engine.
 
I have the 2.84:1 gear box swinging a 74x88 prop = and=20 consistently get 6000 rpm static on a normal day and can get up to 6200 = on a=20 colder day.  My fuel flow will range from 16.5-18 GPH on take off = and has=20 hit 20 GPH on a cold day. I use a 91 Turbo block street ported sans=20 turbocharger.  I have a fairly decent intake system (about the = sixth=20 version - so I did quite a bit of experimentation to get it right and I = think=20 it=E2=80=99s a pretty descent intake)
 
Do you have an air/fuel ratio indicator?  = If so I=20 suggest you run your engine at some of those bin numbers and record what = it is=20 telling you (lean, Medium Rich, etc).  While at higher Manifold = pressure=20 you do want an air/fuel ratio running closer to 12.5:1, I suspect your = air/fuel=20 ratio may be even richer than that.  Now all of these comments = apply to=20 bin/manifold pressures in the non-boosted range < bin 103 or = so.
 
Take a look at my notes - it is possible your = problem=20 could be too rich.  Too much fuel in your mufflers getting ignited = can=20 certainly produce a loud bang.  Perhaps ignition could also cause = it, but=20 right now it appears to me you are simply way too rich between bins=20 75-103.  If you have an air/fuel ratio indicator, I would try = reducing the=20 mixture in those areas.
 
Hope this helps
 
Ed

From: bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:49 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Ed,
Attached is my map table as of today after I tuned it tied down =  on=20 the ground. I have a 93 13BREW that is normally aspirated, it has 9.1/1=20 compression, swinging a catto 74 dia x 88 pitch prop through a 2.85/1 = PSRU. This=20 EC2 is set up to accomodate turbo engines, so I have addresses that = go up=20 to 38 inHg. They are  not used.
 
 I generally idle at MAP address 11 mp of 14.9 inHg. at = around=20 1600rpm. This is a 60 degree day at barometer setting of 30.3. Advancing = the=20 throttle, the EC2 switches over to the high RPM table at = MAP address 17 (mp=20 17.2), going straight to address 80. My staging point is 84 (mp 19.1) = from there=20 up to full throttle, MAP address 106 mp 29.1, the transition is smooth. = At full=20 throttle on the ground I'm getting 5200 RPM. When I go much past that = RPM on=20 takeoff, that's when the missing starts. I'm still guessing that I need = to=20 richen up the mixture in the addresses above 106.
 
Any input from anyone on this would be appreciated.
 
Brian Trubee
 


 


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Fri, May 13, 2011 3:18 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine = Tuning

 Brian, what values do you have in your = fuel map=20 around 90-105?   I have values of 172 for WOT and at times = (cool OAT)=20 I have to enrichen the mixture beyond that with the manual mixture=20 control
 
Ed

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 5:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning


Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the = opportunity=20 to put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an = idle up=20 to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it = seems=20 that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get = hellacious=20 backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throttling back = to about=20 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full rich. It's getting = to be a=20 bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out and = then get a=20 series of hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking that I'm = still=20 running too lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into the edit = page and=20 richen up the mixture around those addresses. I think I'm creeping up on = smooth=20 full throttle running.
 
The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at = less- so=20 the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet = a bit=20 or restrict the outflow.
 
Brian Trubee
=3D=20
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