X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4984501 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 May 2011 17:12:58 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=2eRU7/Hz3VlqkdLxzKFKJPBwNf5HXLm+W19RdYpLufc= c=1 sm=0 a=WjNWsKtNRr0A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=jF2J2qcRKadE3Iygj78A:9 a=M83-Q9TQCq5O5YYk4zgA:7 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=c2NNh6rpiWr-gc-U:21 a=08J11r2dockGmf_s:21 a=6u62O-yoV8kahIcRkbkA:9 a=2wBxaAPmHkuDfdAKMZ4A:7 a=L2ndHOyzKEuyLmGi:21 a=hjXLoOlwAGys2l1_:21 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:58496] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 26/32-03125-5B140DD4; Sun, 15 May 2011 21:12:22 +0000 Message-ID: <793D19393E7448A7BC9AB26F8AE74491@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 17:12:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01CC1323.33FBE0F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01CC1323.33FBE0F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are you off racing again {:>)? Ed From: Tracy=20 Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 5:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? There have been a lot of refinements in the past 5years but whether the = CAS impedance matching I mentioned will fix your issues is beyond what I = can predict. Tracy Sent from my iPad On May 15, 2011, at 4:18 PM, bktrub@aol.com wrote: So Tracy, I'm going to do another ground run and record all the MAP = data/engine RPM etc.. The plane flies well, I just want to nail this = engine running issue down. The last update on my EC2 was 4-19-2006. Do = I need another update, or to change my trigger wheel or CAS sensor/s? Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 5:03 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? Yes, there is a big difference. The Renesis has a totally different = trigger wheel pattern and only one sensor. The sensor itself is very = similar though. It may need the Renesis impedance matching network that = is built into the EC3 and added into 13BREW EC2s when necessary. Some = installations have needed it, others have not. The symptoms typically happen at higher rpms and not below. Tracy Sent from my iPad On May 15, 2011, at 1:20 AM, bktrub@aol.com wrote: Ok Tracy,=20 This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between = the sensor wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the = Renesis? I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's in the = air that I'm having problems with missing and backfiring. Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brain, That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I was not = (or just did not ever hear) of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor = system.............. =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: "bktrub@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:10:08 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank angle = sensors- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per = revolution, I presume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it = effect the ignition system? Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian, You are using the Renesis timing wheel and single sensor rather = than the 93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume...........=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: "bktrub@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning So Mark,=20 your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional = distributor before you changed it?=20 I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and = I'll report back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map = address I get at WOT.=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian, =20 My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. It ran = fine below 5800. I could get there on the ground since I have an = adjustable prop. Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could = replicate the problem on the ground? =20 Mark=20 On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, wrote: I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I = don't have a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen = at or near WOT on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open = on the ground and cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There = must be enough of a difference in engine loading to cause the problem, = so I tend to think it's not ignition, because if it were, I would be = getting the same problem on the ground.=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian, =20 A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with = the EC-2. I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, = tuning, or a little of both. It was running pretty good, then I had the = brilliant idea to switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS = (mounted on the crank pulley). Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft = has too much movement to produce a good clean signal. Finally, in = desperation, I switched back to the original CAS and the high rpm tuning = problem was magically cured. Not sure what type CAS you're using, but = you may want to put a scope on the lead to see what is going on at high = rpm. =20 Mark =20 On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, wrote: I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be = having some sort of ignition problem. Adjusting the mixture does seem = to mitigate it somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an = igntion problem. Also, it only seems to happen in flight, not on the = ground, where the loads are a little different. So, I still have = questions about this, but I'm going to approach this from the mixture = angle. If I am having an igntion problem, it's only happening at almost = full throttle and in flight, so I'm scratching my head trying to see how = to test for this.=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Steven W. Boese To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian (and anyone else with more experience than me), With my engine stand, primary injectors as small as 21 lb and = secondary injectors from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 = inches. Mixtures from lean misfire to rich misfire have been set with = RPM up to 5800. Although misfires can be induced with mixture, at no = time was there anything that could be considered a backfire and = certainly nothing like a grenade. In flight, I have induced misfires = with rich as well as lean mixtures again with nothing like the results = you describe. My plane=E2=80=99s muffler is a hollow tube about 6 = inches in diameter 3 feet long with a slightly less than 2=E2=80=9D = diameter outlet and two chambers inside separated by a conical wall. = This muffler would seem to be more of a bomb than a grenade if a = backfire were to happen. Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that there is a = viable fuel-air mixture in the exhaust system seem to indicate that the = problem may be ignition rather than mixture? This is just a question, = not intended to be an answer. = =20 Steve Boese RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the = opportunity to put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I = can go from an idle up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. = But when I take off, it seems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet = off the runway, I get hellacious backfiring at full throttle. I can = mitigate it a bit by throttling back to about 5100 rpm, and turning the = mixture knob to near full rich. It's getting to be a bit nerve wracking = to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out and then get a series of = hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking that I'm still = running too lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into the edit = page and richen up the mixture around those addresses. I think I'm = creeping up on smooth full throttle running. The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at = less- so the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my = air inlet a bit or restrict the outflow. Brian Trubee =3D=20 =3D=20 =3D ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01CC1323.33FBE0F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Are you off racing again {:>)?
 
Ed

From: Tracy
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 5:02 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine = Tuning/Tracy?

There have been a lot of refinements in the past 5years but whether = the CAS=20 impedance matching I mentioned will fix your issues is beyond what I can = predict.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2011, at 4:18 PM, bktrub@aol.com wrote:

So Tracy, I'm going to do another ground run and record all the = MAP=20 data/engine RPM etc.. The plane flies well, I just want to nail this = engine=20 running issue down.  The last update on my EC2 was = 4-19-2006. Do I=20 need another update, or to change my trigger wheel or CAS = sensor/s?
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sun, May 15, 2011 5:03 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine=20 Tuning/Tracy?

Yes, there is a big difference.  The Renesis has a totally = different=20 trigger wheel pattern and only one sensor.  The sensor itself is = very=20 similar though.  It may need the Renesis impedance matching = network that=20 is built into the EC3 and added into 13BREW EC2s when necessary. =  Some=20 installations have needed it, others have not.

The symptoms typically happen at higher rpms and not below.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2011, at 1:20 AM, bktrub@aol.com = wrote:

Ok  = Tracy,
 
This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference = between the=20 sensor wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the=20 Renesis?
 
I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's = in the=20 air that I'm having problems with missing and backfiring.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine = Tuning

Brain,
   That is a question Tracy will have to = answer...........I=20 was not  (or just did not ever hear)
of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor=20 system..............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: "bktrub@aol.com" <bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 = 12:10:08=20 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Engine Tuning

No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and = two crank=20 angle sensors- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once = per=20 revolution, I presume. There's a difference? What is it and how does = it=20 effect the ignition system?
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine = Tuning

Brian,
     You are using the Renesis = timing=20 wheel and single sensor rather than the
93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I=20 presume........... 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: "bktrub@aol.com" <bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 = 8:59:15=20 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Engine Tuning

So Mark,
your CAS was one of those that are configured like a = conventional=20 distributor before you changed it?
 
I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running = and I'll=20 report back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map = address I=20 get at WOT.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine = Tuning

Brian, =20

My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. =  It ran=20 fine below 5800.  I could get there on the ground since I have = an=20 adjustable prop.  Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you = could=20 replicate the problem on the ground?  

Mark 

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> = wrote:
I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. = I don't=20 have a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen = at or=20 near WOT on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open = on the=20 ground and cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There = must be=20 enough of a difference in engine loading to cause the problem, so = I tend=20 to think it's not ignition, because if it were, I would be getting = the=20 same problem on the ground.
 
 
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine=20 Tuning

Brian, =20

A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues = with the=20 EC-2.  I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was = ignition,=20 tuning, or a little of both.  It was running pretty good, = then I had=20 the brilliant idea to  switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis = style=20 CAS (mounted on the crank pulley).  Apparently, the 20B's = eccentric=20 shaft has too much movement to produce a good clean signal. =  Finally,=20 in desperation, I switched back to the original CAS and the high = rpm=20 tuning problem was magically cured.  Not sure what type CAS = you're=20 using, but you may want to put a scope on the lead to see what is = going on=20 at high rpm.  

Mark   

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> = wrote:
I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might = be having=20 some sort of ignition problem.  Adjusting the mixture does = seem to=20 mitigate it somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not = an=20 igntion problem. Also, it only seems to happen in flight, not on = the=20 ground, where the loads are a little different. So, I still have = questions about this, but I'm going to approach this from the = mixture=20 angle. If I am having an igntion problem, it's only happening at = almost=20 full throttle and in flight, so I'm scratching my head trying to = see how=20 to test for this.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine=20 Tuning

Brian (and = anyone else=20 with more experience than me),
 
With my = engine stand,=20 primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary injectors from = 30 to=20 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches.  Mixtures = from lean=20 misfire to rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800.  = Although misfires can be induced with mixture, at no time was = there=20 anything that could be considered a backfire and certainly = nothing like=20 a grenade.  In flight, I have induced misfires with rich as = well as=20 lean mixtures again with nothing like the results you = describe.  My=20 plane=E2=80=99s muffler is a hollow tube about 6 inches in = diameter 3 feet long=20 with a slightly less than 2=E2=80=9D diameter outlet and two = chambers inside=20 separated by a conical wall.  This muffler would seem to be = more of=20 a bomb than a grenade if a backfire were to happen.  = Doesn=E2=80=99t the=20 fact that there is a viable fuel-air mixture in the exhaust = system seem=20 to indicate that the problem may be ignition rather than = mixture? =20 This is just a question, not intended to be an = answer.
           =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;     =20
Steve = Boese
RV6A 1986 = 13B NA RD1A=20 EC2
 
 
 =20   
 
From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]=20 On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com
Sent:=20 Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine = Tuning
 

Since the weather = has been=20 cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to put a few more = hours on=20 the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idle up to full = throttle=20 and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it seems = that as=20 soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get = hellacious=20 backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by = throttling back=20 to about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full = rich. It's=20 getting to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got = it=20 smoothed out and then get a series of hand grenades going off = under my=20 butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running too lean up at map = address 106=20 or so. So, I go into the edit page and richen up the mixture = around=20 those addresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full throttle = running.
 
The=20 good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at = less- so the=20 cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air = inlet a=20 bit or restrict the outflow.
 
Brian=20 Trubee
=3D=20 =


<= /FONT>
=3D=20 =3D=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01CC1323.33FBE0F0--