X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTPS id 4984484 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 May 2011 17:03:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by iwn6 with SMTP id 6so7182207iwn.25 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:03:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer :in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version; bh=nZK7qAg1CRsIVRvMsXG2S3dGOdnQImhz/CjGWjrXoK4=; b=gO1WB8c9lo5A66/vIqOL9EBGEFgxglnYLYZ/HrMMfM5MBwL1YKIVc13RuZtAnLeenI JWh2nToPsVwhkDISYl8QAkbtxKOpc0lfYSR+ma0VD0A5+bsEHXAxBKM3QjUXpGfWQCd4 u6G0IYesiAF3/4PcJ9wimxbHHFfJy6VphqNcY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; b=bbt3TxRXGlTkJR4t6KONYGX7Tr177rEYFBkkd+IZYbIbjuGJyfPHnHn2tbXMfEhNok EKCBNmWWjGH3wTknqqtWdkVnKj538H8gUfupvtKCOJwOrOH/oOC1iM8qXheayBc3yo6v tXbxFbMioWcnXjMo8qh1Xise56O6C2Uw1FewU= Received: by 10.42.37.199 with SMTP id z7mr4195207icd.110.1305493388752; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.0.1.8] (99-197-145-127.cust.wildblue.net [99.197.145.127]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gy41sm1920197ibb.5.2011.05.15.14.02.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 May 2011 14:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? References: From: Tracy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7-768659765 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8F191) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <88402A9B-5B7A-435D-816C-F5F0CB2D9BB7@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 17:02:40 -0400 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8F191) --Apple-Mail-7-768659765 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 There have been a lot of refinements in the past 5years but whether the CAS i= mpedance matching I mentioned will fix your issues is beyond what I can pred= ict. Tracy Sent from my iPad On May 15, 2011, at 4:18 PM, bktrub@aol.com wrote: > So Tracy, I'm going to do another ground run and record all the MAP data/e= ngine RPM etc.. The plane flies well, I just want to nail this engine runnin= g issue down. The last update on my EC2 was 4-19-2006. Do I need another up= date, or to change my trigger wheel or CAS sensor/s? > =20 > Brian Trubee >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Tracy > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 5:03 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? >=20 > Yes, there is a big difference. The Renesis has a totally different trigg= er wheel pattern and only one sensor. The sensor itself is very similar tho= ugh. It may need the Renesis impedance matching network that is built into t= he EC3 and added into 13BREW EC2s when necessary. Some installations have n= eeded it, others have not. >=20 > The symptoms typically happen at higher rpms and not below. >=20 > Tracy >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On May 15, 2011, at 1:20 AM, bktrub@aol.com wrote: >=20 >> Ok Tracy, >> =20 >> This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between the sen= sor wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the Renesis? >> =20 >> I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's in the air t= hat I'm having problems with missing and backfiring. >> =20 >> Brian Trubee >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kelly Troyer >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >>=20 >> Brain, >> That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I was not (or j= ust did not ever hear) >> of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system.............. >> =20 >> Kelly Troyer >> "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) >> "13B ROTARY"_ Engine >> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 >> "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold >> "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo >>=20 >>=20 >> From: "bktrub@aol.com" >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:10:08 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >>=20 >> No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank angle senso= rs- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per revolution, I p= resume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it effect the ignition= system? >> =20 >> Brian Trubee >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kelly Troyer >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >>=20 >> Brian, >> You are using the Renesis timing wheel and single sensor rather than= the >> 93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume...........=20 >> =20 >> Kelly Troyer >> "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) >> "13B ROTARY"_ Engine >> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 >> "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold >> "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo >>=20 >>=20 >> From: "bktrub@aol.com" >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >>=20 >> So Mark, >> your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional distrib= utor before you changed it? >> =20 >> I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll re= port back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map address I g= et at WOT. >> =20 >> Brian Trubee >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Steitle >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >>=20 >> Brian,=20 >>=20 >> My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. It ran fine bel= ow 5800. I could get there on the ground since I have an adjustable prop. M= aybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicate the problem on t= he ground? =20 >>=20 >> Mark=20 >>=20 >> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, wrote: >> I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don't have= a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at or near WOT= on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on the ground and= cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must be enough of a d= ifference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend to think it's no= t ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the same problem on the g= round. >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Brian Trubee >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Steitle >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >>=20 >> Brian,=20 >>=20 >> A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the EC-2= . I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tuning, or a li= ttle of both. It was running pretty good, then I had the brilliant idea to = switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted on the crank pull= ey). Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too much movement to produce= a good clean signal. Finally, in desperation, I switched back to the origi= nal CAS and the high rpm tuning problem was magically cured. Not sure what t= ype CAS you're using, but you may want to put a scope on the lead to see wha= t is going on at high rpm. =20 >>=20 >> Mark =20 >>=20 >> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, wrote: >> I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be having some s= ort of ignition problem. Adjusting the mixture does seem to mitigate it som= ewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion problem. Also, it= only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, where the loads are a li= ttle different. So, I still have questions about this, but I'm going to appr= oach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an igntion problem, it's on= ly happening at almost full throttle and in flight, so I'm scratching my hea= d trying to see how to test for this. >> =20 >> Brian Trubee >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steven W. Boese >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >>=20 >> Brian (and anyone else with more experience than me), >> =20 >> With my engine stand, primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary i= njectors from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches. Mixture= s from lean misfire to rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800. Alth= ough misfires can be induced with mixture, at no time was there anything tha= t could be considered a backfire and certainly nothing like a grenade. In f= light, I have induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixtures again with= nothing like the results you describe. My plane=E2=80=99s muffler is a hol= low tube about 6 inches in diameter 3 feet long with a slightly less than 2=E2= =80=9D diameter outlet and two chambers inside separated by a conical wall. = This muffler would seem to be more of a bomb than a grenade if a backfire w= ere to happen. Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that there is a viable fuel-air mix= ture in the exhaust system seem to indicate that the problem may be ignition= rather than mixture? This is just a question, not intended to be an answer= . >> =20 >> Steve Boese >> RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On B= ehalf Of bktrub@aol.com >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning >> =20 >>=20 >> Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity t= o put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idle= up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it s= eems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get hellaci= ous backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throttling back t= o about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full rich. It's getti= ng to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out a= nd then get a series of hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking t= hat I'm still running too lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into th= e edit page and richen up the mixture around those addresses. I think I'm cr= eeping up on smooth full throttle running. >> =20 >> The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so t= he cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet a bi= t or restrict the outflow. >> =20 >> Brian Trubee >> =3D >>=20 >>=20 > =3D > =3D --Apple-Mail-7-768659765 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
There have been a lot of refinements in= the past 5years but whether the CAS impedance matching I mentioned will fix= your issues is beyond what I can predict.

Tracy
Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2011, at 4:18 PM, bktrub@aol.com wrote:

So Tracy, I'm going to do another ground run and record all the MAP dat= a/engine RPM etc.. The plane flies well, I just want to nail this engine run= ning issue down.  The last update on my EC2 was 4-19-2006. Do I ne= ed another update, or to change my trigger wheel or CAS sensor/s?
 
Brian Trubee



-= ----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com= >
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 5:03 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy?

Yes, there is a big difference.  The Renesis has a totally differe= nt trigger wheel pattern and only one sensor.  The sensor itself is ver= y similar though.  It may need the Renesis impedance matching network t= hat is built into the EC3 and added into 13BREW EC2s when necessary.  S= ome installations have needed it, others have not.

The symptoms typically happen at higher rpms and not below.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2011, at 1:20 AM, bktrub@aol.com wrote:

Ok  Tracy,
 
This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between the s= ensor wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the Renesis?
=
 
I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's in the ai= r that I'm having problems with missing and backfiring.
 
Brian Trubee



-= ----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brain,
   That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I w= as not  (or just did not ever hear)
of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system..............  
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventuall= y)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: "bktrub@aol.com" <<= a href=3D"mailto:bktrub@aol.com">bktrub@ao= l.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:1= 0:08 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eng= ine Tuning

No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank angl= e sensors- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per revolut= ion, I presume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it effect the i= gnition system?
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net&= gt;
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian,
     You are using the Renesis timing whe= el and single sensor rather than the
93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume...........   
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventuall= y)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: "bktrub@aol.com" <bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59= :15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eng= ine Tuning

So Mark,
your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional distr= ibutor before you changed it?
 
I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll r= eport back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map address I g= et at WOT.
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian, =20=

My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up.  It ran f= ine below 5800.  I could get there on the ground since I have an adjust= able prop.  Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicat= e the problem on the ground?  

Mark 

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, <bktrub@aol.com&= gt; wrote:
I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don't ha= ve a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at or near W= OT on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on the ground a= nd cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must be enough of a= difference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend to think it's n= ot ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the same problem on the g= round.
 
 
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian, =20

A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the EC= -2.  I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tuning, o= r a little of both.  It was running pretty good, then I had the brillia= nt idea to  switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted o= n the crank pulley).  Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too muc= h movement to produce a good clean signal.  Finally, in desperation, I s= witched back to the original CAS and the high rpm tuning problem was magical= ly cured.  Not sure what type CAS you're using, but you may want to put= a scope on the lead to see what is going on at high rpm.  

Mark   

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, <bktrub@aol.com= > wrote:
I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be having som= e sort of ignition problem.  Adjusting the mixture does seem to mitigat= e it somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion problem. A= lso, it only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, where the loads a= re a little different. So, I still have questions about this, but I'm going t= o approach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an igntion problem, i= t's only happening at almost full throttle and in flight, so I'm scratching m= y head trying to see how to test for this.
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Steven W. Boese <= SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian (and anyone else= with more experience than me),
 
With my engine stand, p= rimary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary injectors from 30 to 50 lb h= ave been used, with MAP up to 30 inches.  Mixtures from lean misfire to= rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800.  Although misfires can= be induced with mixture, at no time was there anything that could be consid= ered a backfire and certainly nothing like a grenade.  In flight, I hav= e induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixtures again with nothing lik= e the results you describe.  My plane=E2=80=99s muffler is a hollow tub= e about 6 inches in diameter 3 feet long with a slightly less than 2=E2=80=9D= diameter outlet and two chambers inside separated by a conical wall.  T= his muffler would seem to be more of a bomb than a grenade if a backfire wer= e to happen.  Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that there is a viable fuel-air m= ixture in the exhaust system seem to indicate that the problem may be igniti= on rather than mixture?  This is just a question, not intended to be an= answer.
   &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;          
Steve Boese
RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A E= C2
&nb= sp;
 
    
&nb= sp;
From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailt= o:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning
 

Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to p= ut a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idle up= to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it see= ms that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get hellaciou= s backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throttling back to= about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full rich. It's gettin= g to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out a= nd then get a series of hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking t= hat I'm still running too lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into th= e edit page and richen up the mixture around those addresses. I think I'm cr= eeping up on smooth full throttle running.
 = ;
The g= ood news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so the cool= ing is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet a bit or re= strict the outflow.
 = ;
Brian= Trubee
=3D


=3D
=3D
= --Apple-Mail-7-768659765--