X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.145] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4984480 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 May 2011 16:19:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.145; envelope-from=Bktrub@aol.com Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-da03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p4FKIP8H012814 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 16:18:25 -0400 Received: from Bktrub@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.c1d.92fb1f45 (55914) for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 16:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-de01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-de01.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.168]) by cia-md07.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD071-b22c4dd03509184; Sun, 15 May 2011 16:18:20 -0400 Received: from webmail-m129 (webmail-m129.sim.aol.com [149.174.9.20]) by smtprly-de01.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDE011-b22c4dd03509184; Sun, 15 May 2011 16:18:17 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 16:18:17 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 50.46.100.112 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CDE1545CCA6FDF_2844_52704_webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33668-STANDARD Received: from 50.46.100.112 by webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com (149.174.9.20) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 15 May 2011 16:18:17 -0400 Message-Id: <8CDE1545CBC2799-2844-411A3@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Bktrub@aol.com ----------MB_8CDE1545CCA6FDF_2844_52704_webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" So Tracy, I'm going to do another ground run and record all the MAP data/e= ngine RPM etc.. The plane flies well, I just want to nail this engine runn= ing issue down. The last update on my EC2 was 4-19-2006. Do I need anothe= r update, or to change my trigger wheel or CAS sensor/s? Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 5:03 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? Yes, there is a big difference. The Renesis has a totally different trigg= er wheel pattern and only one sensor. The sensor itself is very similar= though. It may need the Renesis impedance matching network that is built= into the EC3 and added into 13BREW EC2s when necessary. Some installatio= ns have needed it, others have not. The symptoms typically happen at higher rpms and not below. Tracy Sent from my iPad On May 15, 2011, at 1:20 AM, bktrub@aol.com wrote: Ok Tracy,=20 =20 This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between the sens= or wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the Renesis? =20 I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's in the air= that I'm having problems with missing and backfiring. =20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brain, That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I was not (or= just did not ever hear) of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system.............. =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo From: "bktrub@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:10:08 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank angle sensor= s- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per revolution,= I presume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it effect the ig= nition system? =20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian, You are using the Renesis timing wheel and single sensor rather than= the 93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume...........=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo From: "bktrub@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning So Mark,=20 your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional distribu= tor before you changed it?=20 =20 I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll rep= ort back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map address I= get at WOT.=20 =20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian, =20 My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. It ran fine belo= w 5800. I could get there on the ground since I have an adjustable prop.= Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicate the problem= on the ground? =20 Mark=20 On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, wrote: I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don't have= a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at or near= WOT on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on the grou= nd and cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must be enou= gh of a difference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend to th= ink it's not ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the same pro= blem on the ground.=20 =20 =20 =20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian, =20 A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the EC-2.= I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tuning, or a= little of both. It was running pretty good, then I had the brilliant ide= a to switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted on the cra= nk pulley). Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too much movement= to produce a good clean signal. Finally, in desperation, I switched back= to the original CAS and the high rpm tuning problem was magically cured.= Not sure what type CAS you're using, but you may want to put a scope on= the lead to see what is going on at high rpm. =20 Mark =20 On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, wrote: I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be having some= sort of ignition problem. Adjusting the mixture does seem to mitigate it= somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion problem. Al= so, it only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, where the loads= are a little different. So, I still have questions about this, but I'm go= ing to approach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an igntion pro= blem, it's only happening at almost full throttle and in flight, so I'm sc= ratching my head trying to see how to test for this.=20 =20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Steven W. Boese To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning Brian (and anyone else with more experience than me), =20 With my engine stand, primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary in= jectors from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches. Mixtur= es from lean misfire to rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800. = Although misfires can be induced with mixture, at no time was there anyth= ing that could be considered a backfire and certainly nothing like a grena= de. In flight, I have induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixtures= again with nothing like the results you describe. My plane=E2=80=99s muf= fler is a hollow tube about 6 inches in diameter 3 feet long with a slight= ly less than 2=E2=80=9D diameter outlet and two chambers inside separated= by a conical wall. This muffler would seem to be more of a bomb than a= grenade if a backfire were to happen. Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that ther= e is a viable fuel-air mixture in the exhaust system seem to indicate that= the problem may be ignition rather than mixture? This is just a question= , not intended to be an answer. =20 Steve Boese RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of bktrub@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning =20 Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to= put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idl= e up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off,= it seems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get= hellacious backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by thrott= ling back to about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full ric= h. It's getting to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got= it smoothed out and then get a series of hand grenades going off under my= butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running too lean up at map address 106= or so. So, I go into the edit page and richen up the mixture around those= addresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full throttle running. =20 The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so= the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet= a bit or restrict the outflow. =20 Brian Trubee =3D=20 =3D=20 ----------MB_8CDE1545CCA6FDF_2844_52704_webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
So Tracy, I'm going to do another ground run and record all the MAP= data/engine RPM etc.. The plane flies well, I just want to nail this engi= ne running issue down.  The last update on my EC2 was 4-19-2006.= Do I need another update, or to change my trigger wheel or CAS sensor/s?<= /div>
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 5:03 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy?

Yes, there is a big difference.  The Renesis has a totally diffe= rent trigger wheel pattern and only one sensor.  The sensor itself is= very similar though.  It may need the Renesis impedance matching net= work that is built into the EC3 and added into 13BREW EC2s when necessary.=  Some installations have needed it, others have not.

The symptoms typically happen at higher rpms and not below.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2011, at 1:20 AM, bktrub@aol.= com wrote:

Ok  Tracy,
 
This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between the= sensor wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the Renesis?
 
I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's in the= air that I'm having problems with missing and backfiring.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brain,
   That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I= was not  (or just did not ever hear)
of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system..............=
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=
From: "bktrub@aol.com"= <b= ktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12= :10:08 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Engine Tuning

No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank an= gle sensors- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per rev= olution, I presume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it effec= t the ignition system?
 
Brian Trubee



keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian,
     You are using the Renesis timing= wheel and single sensor rather than the
93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume........... <= br>  
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=
From: "bktrub@aol= .com" <bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:= 59:15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Engine Tuning

So Mark,
your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional dis= tributor before you changed it?
 
I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'l= l report back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map addre= ss I get at WOT.
 
Brian Trubee



msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian, = =20

My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up.  It ran= fine below 5800.  I could get there on the ground since I have an ad= justable prop.  Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could re= plicate the problem on the ground?  

Mark 

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, = <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don't= have a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at or= near WOT on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on the= ground and cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must be= enough of a difference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend= to think it's not ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the sa= me problem on the ground.
 
 
 
Brian Trubee



msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian, =20

A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the= EC-2.  I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tun= ing, or a little of both.  It was running pretty good, then I had the= brilliant idea to  switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS= (mounted on the crank pulley).  Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaf= t has too much movement to produce a good clean signal.  Finally, in= desperation, I switched back to the original CAS and the high rpm tuning= problem was magically cured.  Not sure what type CAS you're using,= but you may want to put a scope on the lead to see what is going on at hi= gh rpm.  

Mark   

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be having= some sort of ignition problem.  Adjusting the mixture does seem to= mitigate it somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion= problem. Also, it only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, wher= e the loads are a little different. So, I still have questions about this,= but I'm going to approach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an= igntion problem, it's only happening at almost full throttle and in fligh= t, so I'm scratching my head trying to see how to test for this.
 
Brian Trubee



SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian (and anyone else= with more experience than me),
 
With my engine stand,= primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary injectors from 30 to 50= lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches.  Mixtures from lean mis= fire to rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800.  Although mis= fires can be induced with mixture, at no time was there anything that coul= d be considered a backfire and certainly nothing like a grenade.  In= flight, I have induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixtures again= with nothing like the results you describe.  My plane=E2=80=99s muff= ler is a hollow tube about 6 inches in diameter 3 feet long with a slightl= y less than 2=E2=80=9D diameter outlet and two chambers inside separated= by a conical wall.  This muffler would seem to be more of a bomb tha= n a grenade if a backfire were to happen.  Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact= that there is a viable fuel-air mixture in the exhaust system seem to ind= icate that the problem may be ignition rather than mixture?  This is= just a question, not intended to be an answer.
   &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             =
Steve Boese
RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A= EC2
&nb= sp;
 
    
&nb= sp;
From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning
 

Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to= put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idl= e up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off,= it seems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get= hellacious backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by thrott= ling back to about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full ric= h. It's getting to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got= it smoothed out and then get a series of hand grenades going off under my= butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running too lean up at map address 106= or so. So, I go into the edit page and richen up the mixture around those= addresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full throttle running.
 = ;
The= good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so the= cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet a bi= t or restrict the outflow.
 = ;
Brian= Trubee
=3D


=3D
=3D ----------MB_8CDE1545CCA6FDF_2844_52704_webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com--