X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f52.google.com ([209.85.161.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTPS id 4984241 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 May 2011 09:11:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxm6 with SMTP id 6so2571593fxm.25 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=keslByzOt30BgusR2Jr0uPaDcekYTeJJKLovHWVZzKI=; b=tEwPIBht7MgQMKvOdZ5Dl8/ISQ3hCPTRaoLWZl4cyY81dFcz2Z9ULls3p9RycUMZ/Q IGkskCujguG/7/azsFR8vFP+cPTi7UGK77IOmLwhmXAvCsAVplPQwY0+X4L68GWqSIyU qW0Jz4X1/UB9Ezy6Jzb9rrEKEi8lCY3hRX9V0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=e592gfHu2QFr3KPVqdPUvMBcj+5DTFpjMYhOSYQEyjdP6D7FKBWMWL4kyWGO02jcln GZx3IL6FrK9A38uhbakly+bxxXFhLYEJ3xNp8OxQStCrHxwgkk7B6ws9pWrlswXWITJZ hKvCslBI2lfx4Kxb95NUJigA1j2xBW8TJFc3A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.24.72 with SMTP id u8mr641328fab.10.1305465060098; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.96.79 with HTTP; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 08:11:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151747354c2c816b04a35045ae --00151747354c2c816b04a35045ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian, Just for clarification, my 20B came with the old style CAS that is basicall= y a modified distributor. I thought it would be nice to shed a couple of pounds and bring my ignition system up to date. I figured the crank mounte= d CAS would be much lighter and more accurate than the "old technology". It took me a year and a half of fighting the mis-firing before I finally decided to put it back like it was when it worked. That cured the problem and I haven't had any mis-firing problems since. Mark On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 12:20 AM, wrote: > Ok Tracy, > > This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between the > sensor wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the Renesis? > > I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's in the air > that I'm having problems with missing and backfiring. > > Brian Trubee > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kelly Troyer > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning > > Brain, > That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I was not (or > just did not ever hear) > of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system.............. > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "bktrub@aol.com" > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sun, May 15, 2011 12:10:08 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning > > No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank angle > sensors- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per > revolution, I presume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it > effect the ignition system? > > Brian Trubee > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kelly Troyer > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning > > Brian, > You are using the Renesis timing wheel and single sensor rather than > the > 93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume........... > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "bktrub@aol.com" > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning > > So Mark, > your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional > distributor before you changed it? > > I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll > report back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map addres= s I > get at WOT. > > Brian Trubee > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Steitle > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning > > Brian, > > My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. It ran fine > below 5800. I could get there on the ground since I have an adjustable > prop. Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicate the > problem on the ground? > > Mark > > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, wrote: > >> I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don't hav= e >> a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at or near = WOT >> on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on the ground = and >> cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must be enough of= a >> difference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend to think it= 's >> not ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the same problem on= the >> ground. >> >> >> >> Brian Trubee >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Steitle >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >> >> Brian, >> >> A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the >> EC-2. I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tuning,= or >> a little of both. It was running pretty good, then I had the brilliant = idea >> to switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted on the cra= nk >> pulley). Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too much movement to >> produce a good clean signal. Finally, in desperation, I switched back t= o >> the original CAS and the high rpm tuning problem was magically cured. N= ot >> sure what type CAS you're using, but you may want to put a scope on the = lead >> to see what is going on at high rpm. >> >> Mark >> >> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, wrote: >> >>> I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be having som= e >>> sort of ignition problem. Adjusting the mixture does seem to mitigate = it >>> somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion problem. = Also, >>> it only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, where the loads a= re a >>> little different. So, I still have questions about this, but I'm going = to >>> approach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an igntion problem= , >>> it's only happening at almost full throttle and in flight, so I'm scrat= ching >>> my head trying to see how to test for this. >>> >>> Brian Trubee >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steven W. Boese >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >>> >>> Brian (and anyone else with more experience than me), >>> >>> With my engine stand, primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary >>> injectors from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches. >>> Mixtures from lean misfire to rich misfire have been set with RPM up t= o >>> 5800. Although misfires can be induced with mixture, at no time was th= ere >>> anything that could be considered a backfire and certainly nothing like= a >>> grenade. In flight, I have induced misfires with rich as well as lean >>> mixtures again with nothing like the results you describe. My plane=92= s >>> muffler is a hollow tube about 6 inches in diameter 3 feet long with a >>> slightly less than 2=94 diameter outlet and two chambers inside separat= ed by a >>> conical wall. This muffler would seem to be more of a bomb than a gren= ade >>> if a backfire were to happen. Doesn=92t the fact that there is a viabl= e >>> fuel-air mixture in the exhaust system seem to indicate that the proble= m may >>> be ignition rather than mixture? This is just a question, not intended= to >>> be an answer. >>> >>> Steve Boese >>> RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= flyrotary@lancaironline.net?>] >>> *On Behalf Of *bktrub@aol.com >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM >>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning >>> >>> >>> Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity >>> to put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from a= n >>> idle up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take= off, >>> it seems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I ge= t >>> hellacious backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by >>> throttling back to about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near= full >>> rich. It's getting to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've= got >>> it smoothed out and then get a series of hand grenades going off under = my >>> butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running too lean up at map address 10= 6 or >>> so. So, I go into the edit page and richen up the mixture around those >>> addresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full throttle running. >>> >>> The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- >>> so the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air i= nlet >>> a bit or restrict the outflow. >>> >>> Brian Trubee >>> =3D >>> >> >> > --00151747354c2c816b04a35045ae Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian,=A0

Just for clarification, my 20B came with the o= ld style CAS that is basically a modified distributor. =A0I thought it woul= d be nice to shed a couple of pounds and bring my ignition system up to dat= e. =A0I figured the crank mounted CAS would be much lighter and more accura= te than the "old technology". =A0It took me a year and a half of = fighting the mis-firing before I finally decided to put it back like it was= when it worked. =A0That cured the problem and I haven't had any mis-fi= ring problems since.

Mark

On Sun, May 15, = 2011 at 12:20 AM, <= bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
Ok=A0 Tracy,
=A0
This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between the = sensor wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the Renesis?
=A0
I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's = in the air that I'm having problems with missing and backfiring.
=A0
Brian Trubee



-----= Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <= keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brain,
=A0=A0 That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I was no= t=A0 (or just did not ever hear)
of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system..............<= br> =A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: "bktrub@aol.com" <bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:1= 0:08 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eng= ine Tuning

No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two=A0crank angle = sensors- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per revoluti= on, I presume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it effect = the ignition system?
=A0
Brian Trubee



----= -Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <= keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian,
=A0=A0=A0=A0 You are=A0using the=A0Renesis timing wheel and=A0single s= ensor rather than the
93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume...........=A0
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: "bktrub@aol.com&quo= t; <bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59= :15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eng= ine Tuning

So Mark,
your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional dist= ributor before you changed it?
=A0
I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and = I'll report back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map= address I get at WOT.
=A0
Brian Trubee



----= -Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian,=A0=20

My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. =A0It ran fin= e below 5800. =A0I could get there on the ground since I have an adjustable= prop. =A0Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicate the = problem on the ground? =A0

Mark=A0

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don= 't have a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at= or near WOT on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on t= he ground and cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must b= e enough of a difference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend = to think it's not ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the = same problem on the ground.
=A0
=A0
=A0
Brian Trubee



----= -Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian,=A0=20

A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the E= C-2. =A0I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tuning, o= r a little of both. =A0It was running pretty good, then I had the brilliant= idea to =A0switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted o= n the crank pulley). =A0Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too m= uch movement to produce a good clean signal. =A0Finally, in desperation, I = switched back to the original CAS and the high rpm tuning problem was magic= ally cured. =A0Not sure what type CAS you're using, but you may want to= put a scope on the lead to see what is going on at high rpm. =A0

Mark =A0=A0

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be havin= g some sort of ignition problem.=A0 Adjusting the mixture does seem to miti= gate it somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion probl= em. Also, it only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, where the l= oads are a little different. So, I still have questions about this, but I&#= 39;m going to approach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an ignti= on problem, it's only happening at almost full throttle and in flight, = so I'm scratching my head trying to see how to test for this.
=A0
Brian Trubee



----= -Original Message-----
From: Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian (and anyone else= with more experience than me),
=A0
With my engine stand, = primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary injectors from 30 to 50 l= b have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches. =A0Mixtures from lean misfire t= o rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800.=A0 Although misfires can = be induced with mixture, at no time was there anything that could be consid= ered a backfire and certainly nothing like a grenade.=A0 In flight, I have = induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixtures again with nothing like= the results you describe.=A0 My plane=92s muffler is a hollow tube about 6= inches in diameter 3 feet long with a slightly less than 2=94 diameter out= let and two chambers inside separated by a conical wall.=A0 This muffler wo= uld seem to be more of a bomb than a grenade if a backfire were to happen.= =A0 Doesn=92t the fact that there is a viable fuel-air mixture in the exhau= st system seem to indicate that the problem may be ignition rather than mix= ture?=A0 This is just a question, not intended to be an answer.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
Steve Boese
RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A = EC2
=A0
=A0
=A0 =A0=A0
=A0
From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning
=A0

Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity= to put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an i= dle up to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off,= it seems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I g= et hellacious backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throt= tling back to about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full ric= h. It's getting to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I'v= e got it smoothed out and then get a series of hand grenades going off unde= r my butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running too lean up at map a= ddress 106 or so. So, I go into the edit page and richen up the mixture aro= und those addresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full throttle ru= nning.
=A0
The goo= d news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so the cooli= ng is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet a bit or re= strict the outflow.
=A0
Brian T= rubee
=3D



--00151747354c2c816b04a35045ae--