X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iy0-f180.google.com ([209.85.210.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTPS id 4984170 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 May 2011 08:04:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.180; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by iyf40 with SMTP id 40so6447714iyf.25 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 05:04:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer :in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version; bh=jlea8uavQNGU9kd7tntLd9Mkk5LJxbslbZe7kexMH78=; b=NTu98DOIf9vTHSnTU2OXF0hkDjaQAJQ+ZB8nFOmCAIuU4w+N44QgafvL0XGaqU6jlB ik2ydxHALqI6TrewqVBY676hPsSKpqAyLZikSuoHJkc5fQDWXevQi6zhUWt94UYvyvSy bbMEgVEGwXCOV35t3Q438ah1DwmB4/VG9CCaw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; b=cbkwWX3x/c8OugyJmXbCrFCx1a3lk2ds2xR/EUy7sVinKvzD1Bs7VWGyICLtjk4NML TPgVk0eksbDOSXvIzaGnc0R7poRsK5QF2NrifbG0blG2HKncqYa6xOtypK/wEZoMQ9ZI jJ9bnXKYQZ14PKtE7xiaXNQKMQE1mfodWhw/c= Received: by 10.42.164.129 with SMTP id g1mr4076742icy.175.1305461049188; Sun, 15 May 2011 05:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.0.1.8] (99-197-145-127.cust.wildblue.net [99.197.145.127]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u17sm1755185ibm.11.2011.05.15.05.03.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 May 2011 05:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning/Tracy? References: From: Tracy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4-736323956 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8F191) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4D29C2C4-7991-4113-B35B-44F3EA2D7578@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 08:03:44 -0400 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8F191) --Apple-Mail-4-736323956 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes, there is a big difference. The Renesis has a totally different trigger= wheel pattern and only one sensor. The sensor itself is very similar thoug= h. It may need the Renesis impedance matching network that is built into th= e EC3 and added into 13BREW EC2s when necessary. Some installations have ne= eded it, others have not. The symptoms typically happen at higher rpms and not below. Tracy Sent from my iPad On May 15, 2011, at 1:20 AM, bktrub@aol.com wrote: > Ok Tracy, > =20 > This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between the sens= or wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the Renesis? > =20 > I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's in the air t= hat I'm having problems with missing and backfiring. > =20 > Brian Trubee >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Kelly Troyer > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >=20 > Brain, > That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I was not (or j= ust did not ever hear) > of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system.............. > =20 > Kelly Troyer > "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo >=20 >=20 > From: "bktrub@aol.com" > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:10:08 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >=20 > No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank angle sensor= s- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per revolution, I p= resume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it effect the ignition= system? > =20 > Brian Trubee >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Kelly Troyer > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >=20 > Brian, > You are using the Renesis timing wheel and single sensor rather than t= he > 93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume...........=20 > =20 > Kelly Troyer > "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo >=20 >=20 > From: "bktrub@aol.com" > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >=20 > So Mark, > your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional distribu= tor before you changed it? > =20 > I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll rep= ort back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map address I ge= t at WOT. > =20 > Brian Trubee >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Steitle > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >=20 > Brian,=20 >=20 > My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. It ran fine belo= w 5800. I could get there on the ground since I have an adjustable prop. M= aybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicate the problem on t= he ground? =20 >=20 > Mark=20 >=20 > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, wrote: > I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don't have a= scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at or near WOT o= n climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on the ground and c= annot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must be enough of a di= fference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend to think it's not= ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the same problem on the gr= ound. > =20 > =20 > =20 > Brian Trubee >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Steitle > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >=20 > Brian,=20 >=20 > A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the EC-2.= I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tuning, or a lit= tle of both. It was running pretty good, then I had the brilliant idea to s= witch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted on the crank pulley= ). Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too much movement to produce a= good clean signal. Finally, in desperation, I switched back to the origina= l CAS and the high rpm tuning problem was magically cured. Not sure what ty= pe CAS you're using, but you may want to put a scope on the lead to see what= is going on at high rpm. =20 >=20 > Mark =20 >=20 > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, wrote: > I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be having some s= ort of ignition problem. Adjusting the mixture does seem to mitigate it som= ewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion problem. Also, it= only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, where the loads are a li= ttle different. So, I still have questions about this, but I'm going to appr= oach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an igntion problem, it's on= ly happening at almost full throttle and in flight, so I'm scratching my hea= d trying to see how to test for this. > =20 > Brian Trubee >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven W. Boese > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning >=20 > Brian (and anyone else with more experience than me), > =20 > With my engine stand, primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary in= jectors from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches. Mixtures= from lean misfire to rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800. Altho= ugh misfires can be induced with mixture, at no time was there anything that= could be considered a backfire and certainly nothing like a grenade. In fl= ight, I have induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixtures again with n= othing like the results you describe. My plane=E2=80=99s muffler is a hollo= w tube about 6 inches in diameter 3 feet long with a slightly less than 2=E2= =80=9D diameter outlet and two chambers inside separated by a conical wall. = This muffler would seem to be more of a bomb than a grenade if a backfire w= ere to happen. Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that there is a viable fuel-air mix= ture in the exhaust system seem to indicate that the problem may be ignition= rather than mixture? This is just a question, not intended to be an answer= . > =20 > Steve Boese > RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of bktrub@aol.com > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning > =20 >=20 > Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to= put a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idle u= p to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it se= ems that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get hellacio= us backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throttling back t= o about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full rich. It's getti= ng to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out a= nd then get a series of hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking t= hat I'm still running too lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into th= e edit page and richen up the mixture around those addresses. I think I'm cr= eeping up on smooth full throttle running. > =20 > The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so t= he cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet a bi= t or restrict the outflow. > =20 > Brian Trubee > =3D >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-4-736323956 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Yes, there is a big difference.  T= he Renesis has a totally different trigger wheel pattern and only one sensor= .  The sensor itself is very similar though.  It may need the Rene= sis impedance matching network that is built into the EC3 and added into 13B= REW EC2s when necessary.  Some installations have needed it, others hav= e not.

The symptoms typically happen at higher rpms= and not below.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2011, at 1:20 AM, bkt= rub@aol.com wrote:

Ok  Tracy,
 
This is a new one to me- is there a functional difference between the s= ensor wheel and two crank angle sensors on my 93 BREW and the Renesis?
=
 
I'm not seeing any problem up to about 5300-5500 static. It's in the ai= r that I'm having problems with missing and backfiring.
 
Brian Trubee



-= ----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net&= gt;
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:14 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brain,
   That is a question Tracy will have to answer...........I w= as not  (or just did not ever hear)
of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system..............  
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventuall= y)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: "bktrub@aol.com" <<= a href=3D"mailto:bktrub@aol.com">bktrub@ao= l.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:1= 0:08 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eng= ine Tuning

No, I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank angl= e sensors- one senses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per revolut= ion, I presume. There's a difference? What is it and how does it effect the i= gnition system?
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian,
     You are using the Renesis timing whe= el and single sensor rather than the
93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume...........   
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventuall= y)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: "bktrub@aol.c= om" <bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59= :15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Eng= ine Tuning

So Mark,
your CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional distr= ibutor before you changed it?
 
I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll r= eport back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map address I g= et at WOT.
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian, =20=

My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up.  It ran f= ine below 5800.  I could get there on the ground since I have an adjust= able prop.  Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicat= e the problem on the ground?  

Mark 

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don't ha= ve a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at or near W= OT on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on the ground a= nd cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must be enough of a= difference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend to think it's n= ot ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the same problem on the g= round.
 
 
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian, =20

A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the EC= -2.  I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tuning, o= r a little of both.  It was running pretty good, then I had the brillia= nt idea to  switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted o= n the crank pulley).  Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too muc= h movement to produce a good clean signal.  Finally, in desperation, I s= witched back to the original CAS and the high rpm tuning problem was magical= ly cured.  Not sure what type CAS you're using, but you may want to put= a scope on the lead to see what is going on at high rpm.  

Mark   

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be having som= e sort of ignition problem.  Adjusting the mixture does seem to mitigat= e it somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion problem. A= lso, it only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, where the loads a= re a little different. So, I still have questions about this, but I'm going t= o approach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an igntion problem, i= t's only happening at almost full throttle and in flight, so I'm scratching m= y head trying to see how to test for this.
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

Brian (and anyone else= with more experience than me),
 
With my engine stand, p= rimary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary injectors from 30 to 50 lb h= ave been used, with MAP up to 30 inches.  Mixtures from lean misfire to= rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800.  Although misfires can= be induced with mixture, at no time was there anything that could be consid= ered a backfire and certainly nothing like a grenade.  In flight, I hav= e induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixtures again with nothing lik= e the results you describe.  My plane=E2=80=99s muffler is a hollow tub= e about 6 inches in diameter 3 feet long with a slightly less than 2=E2=80=9D= diameter outlet and two chambers inside separated by a conical wall.  T= his muffler would seem to be more of a bomb than a grenade if a backfire wer= e to happen.  Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that there is a viable fuel-air m= ixture in the exhaust system seem to indicate that the problem may be igniti= on rather than mixture?  This is just a question, not intended to be an= answer.
   &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;          
Steve Boese
RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A E= C2
&nb= sp;
 
    
&nb= sp;
From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf= Of bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning
 

Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to p= ut a few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idle up= to full throttle and the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it see= ms that as soon as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get hellaciou= s backfiring at full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throttling back to= about 5100 rpm, and turning the mixture knob to near full rich. It's gettin= g to be a bit nerve wracking to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out a= nd then get a series of hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking t= hat I'm still running too lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into th= e edit page and richen up the mixture around those addresses. I think I'm cr= eeping up on smooth full throttle running.
 = ;
The g= ood news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so the cool= ing is more than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet a bit or re= strict the outflow.
 = ;
Brian= Trubee
=3D


= --Apple-Mail-4-736323956--