X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm3-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.108] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with SMTP id 4983940 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 May 2011 01:15:23 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.108; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.97] by nm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2011 05:14:48 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.76] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2011 05:14:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1013.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2011 05:14:48 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 379323.92213.bm@omp1013.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 73106 invoked by uid 60001); 15 May 2011 05:14:48 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1305436488; bh=ZV2v1omP9Ly6JepEWaDXnvUtXWxmvvJoRM5PyWm78CQ=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=kwY6jDpc/orDa/1O2J0sRPZ297DCUuxQuDmfsKFbV25876yCn1mRzLN6JTJua+8MvTBDjwYlez9IT/QD61zQNSpxRPEcsw87TnAaxOfeATwutlSMeaEP2UP/qnmnsX6SYMiGsRZBm5GvjE0sROogVAzw/fbD8rNSfhSKdeJg5Tk= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=tEyAp5wRWy757PbIfYvt+BEar8gZwFxxL/Cv5c5I0uVLhqQUUtHhXBUXVL9nqDG18FrzctFrGPhBF9RMT2VqyZuZQf6a1zjq2lAyNN36qnNcgX9HX+KdBIhk3YEVSDEgZoi6k9ucwX9nTr4XhXdt0U2igOjWS0lS2xlP5LCDomo=; Message-ID: <238973.68023.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: UO8puAQVM1k7xT9q6ZLG8ccGpd.M3dJjhOUuFJn3FRKIUei _gSZ6ZEDLW3WZg9TijLSyI4Ao47BnIFfn9b1AIjTInYwHw9hVF9ooUo0ngQj RHc32SIrjIlTinr8JTuOFaUCyhjyXWZhTAyPSyq7HJOn8OMBJz5VXzXWrhna 77cQAik1jQQXN3WS8G.1cS5pafpp37A.yUwhJV8Tp6EPa_dnbVEeNT1YM7FW X1NhsvwhdlBfG8FH2oNsNWhXY9FAIPD4242uJKEM3xi.hjZfVrXj0a3wStjS KcI_H72ewyJDbzrR85Y01EBgOkdoCLCzVH16SM5cmJ5C8LgT9l98aTFsH1Va 1DPpDFzKIXfVyT9j0 Received: from [208.114.42.1] by web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 14 May 2011 22:14:48 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/567 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.303096 References: Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 22:14:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1715318220-1305436488=:68023" --0-1715318220-1305436488=:68023 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brain,=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0 That is a question Tracy will have to answer.........= ..I was not=C2=A0 (or just =0Adid not ever hear)=0Aof anyone using the EC2 = with the 13BREW 2 sensor system..............=0A=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DY= KE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"M= ISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_= _______________________________=0AFrom: "bktrub@aol.com" = =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sun,= May 15, 2011 12:10:08 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning=0A=0ANo,= I am using the stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two=C2=A0crank angle senso= rs- one =0Asenses every 30 degrees and the other senses once per revolution= , I presume. =0AThere's a difference? What is it and how does it effect the= ignition system?=0A=0ABrian Trubee=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message----= -=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm=0ASubject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning=0A=0A=0ABrian,=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 You a= re=C2=A0using the=C2=A0Renesis timing wheel and=C2=A0single sensor rather t= han the=0A93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume...........=C2= =A0=0A=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_= Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONET= ICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "b= ktrub@aol.com" =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Engine Tuning=0A=0ASo Mark, =0Ayour CAS was one of those that are c= onfigured like a conventional distributor =0Abefore you changed it? =0A=0A= =0AI'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll r= eport =0Aback with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map addres= s I get at =0AWOT. =0A=0A=0ABrian Trubee=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Messag= e-----=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors in air= craft =0ASent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm=0ASub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning=0A=0A=0ABrian,=C2=A0 =0A=0AMy ignition = problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. =C2=A0It ran fine below =0A580= 0. =C2=A0I could get there on the ground since I have an adjustable prop. = =C2=A0Maybe =0Ayou could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicate the p= roblem on the =0Aground? =C2=A0=0A=0AMark=C2=A0=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, May 14, 201= 1 at 6:31 PM, wrote:=0A=0AI've got the crank angle sensor = mounted on the crank pulley. I don't have a =0Ascope, but even if I did, th= e problem only seems to happen at or near WOT on =0Aclimbout and in flight.= I can run the engine wide open on the ground and cannot =0Aget the backfir= ing that I get in the air. There must be enough of a difference =0Ain engin= e loading to cause the problem, so I tend to think it's not ignition, =0Abe= cause if it were, I would be getting the same problem on the ground. =0A=0A= >=0A>=0A>=0A>Brian Trubee=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>= From: Mark Steitle =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am=0A>Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning=0A>=0A>=0A>Brian,=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>=0A>A number= of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues with the EC-2. =C2=A0I = =0A>fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition, tuning, or a li= ttle of =0A>both. =C2=A0It was running pretty good, then I had the brillian= t idea to =C2=A0switch the =0A>20B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mount= ed on the crank pulley). =0A>=C2=A0Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft ha= s too much movement to produce a good =0A>clean signal. =C2=A0Finally, in d= esperation, I switched back to the original CAS and =0A>the high rpm tuning= problem was magically cured. =C2=A0Not sure what type CAS you're =0A>using= , but you may want to put a scope on the lead to see what is going on at = =0A>high rpm. =C2=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>Mark =C2=A0=C2=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sat, May 14= , 2011 at 10:04 AM, wrote:=0A>=0A>I've had the same though= t- that up at higher rpms I might be having some sort of =0A>ignition probl= em.=C2=A0 Adjusting the mixture does seem to mitigate it somewhat, so =0A>t= hat leads me to think that it is not an igntion problem. Also, it only seem= s to =0A>happen in flight, not on the ground, where the loads are a little = different. So, =0A>I still have questions about this, but I'm going to appr= oach this from the =0A>mixture angle. If I am having an igntion problem, it= 's only happening at almost =0A>full throttle and in flight, so I'm scratch= ing my head trying to see how to test =0A>for this. =0A>=0A>>=0A>>Brian Tru= bee=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>-----Original Message-----=0A>>From: Steven W. = Boese =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Engine Tuning=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Brian (and anyone else with more experience= than me),=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>With my engine stand, primary injectors as small = as 21 lb and secondary =0A>>injectors from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with= MAP up to 30 inches. =C2=A0Mixtures =0A>>from lean misfire to rich misfire= have been set with RPM up to 5800.=C2=A0 Although =0A>>misfires can be ind= uced with mixture, at no time was there anything that could =0A>>be conside= red a backfire and certainly nothing like a grenade.=C2=A0 In flight, I =0A= >>have induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixtures again with nothi= ng like =0A>>the results you describe.=C2=A0 My plane=E2=80=99s muffler is = a hollow tube about 6 inches in =0A>>diameter 3 feet long with a slightly l= ess than 2=E2=80=9D diameter outlet and two =0A>>chambers inside separated = by a conical wall.=C2=A0 This muffler would seem to be more =0A>>of a bomb = than a grenade if a backfire were to happen.=C2=A0 Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact= that =0A>>there is a viable fuel-air mixture in the exhaust system seem to= indicate that =0A>>the problem may be ignition rather than mixture?=C2=A0 = This is just a question, not =0A>>intended to be an answer.=0A>>=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =0A>>Steve Boese=0A>>RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0= =0A>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mai= lto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>bktrub@aol.com=0A>>Sent:= Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM=0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>Subject= : [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Since the weather has been cooper= ating lately, I've had the opportunity to put a =0A>>few more hours on the = airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idle up to full =0A>>throttle and= the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it seems that as =0A>>soon= as I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get hellacious backfiring a= t =0A>>full throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throttling back to about 5= 100 rpm, and =0A>>turning the mixture knob to near full rich. It's getting = to be a bit nerve =0A>>wracking to take off thinking I've got it smoothed o= ut and then get a series of =0A>>hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm= thinking that I'm still running too =0A>>lean up at map address 106 or so.= So, I go into the edit page and richen up the =0A>>mixture around those ad= dresses. I think I'm creeping up on smooth full throttle =0A>>running.=0A>>= =C2=A0=0A>>The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at = less- so the =0A>>cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up m= y air inlet a bit or =0A>>restrict the outflow.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Brian Trubee= =3D =0A>=0A --0-1715318220-1305436488=:68023 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Brain,
=0A
   That is a question= Tracy will have to answer...........I was not  (or just did not ever = hear)
=0A
of anyone using the EC2 with the 13BREW 2 sensor system.= .............
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"= DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Mani= fold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A=0A
=0AFrom: "bktrub@aol.com" <bktrub@aol.com>To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:10:08 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

=0A
No, I am using the = stock 93 13BREW timing wheel and two crank angle sensors- one senses e= very 30 degrees and the other senses once per revolution, I presume. There'= s a difference? What is it and how does it effect the ignition system?=0A
 
=0A
Brian Trubee

=0A


=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troye= r <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Engine Tuning

=0A
=0A=0A=0A
=0A
=0A
Brian,
= =0A
     You are using the Renesis timing= wheel and single sensor rather than the
=0A
93-95 13BREW whe= el and dual sensor system I presume........... 
 
=0AKelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
=0A
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS= "_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
=0A
"TURBONETIC= S"_TO4E50 Turbo
=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: "bktrub@aol.com" <bktrub@aol.com>
To:<= /SPAN> Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuni= ng

=0A
So Mark,=
=0A
your CAS was one of those that are configured like a convent= ional distributor before you changed it?
=0A
 
=0A
= I'm going to go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll repo= rt back with the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map address I ge= t at WOT.
=0A
 
=0A
Brian Trubee

=0A


=0A
-----Original Message-----
Fr= om: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com= >
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, = 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

=0A
Brian,  =0A

=
=0A
My ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up. &nbs= p;It ran fine below 5800.  I could get there on the ground since I hav= e an adjustable prop.  Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you co= uld replicate the problem on the ground?  
=0A

=0A<= DIV>Mark 

=0A
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6= :31 PM, <bktrub@aol.com><= /SPAN> wrote:
=0A
=0A
I've got the crank angle sensor mounted= on the crank pulley. I don't have a scope, but even if I did, the problem = only seems to happen at or near WOT on climbout and in flight. I can run th= e engine wide open on the ground and cannot get the backfiring that I get i= n the air. There must be enough of a difference in engine loading to cause = the problem, so I tend to think it's not ignition, because if it were, I wo= uld be getting the same problem on the ground.
=0A
 
= =0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
Brian Trubee

= =0A


=0A
-----Original Message-----<= BR>From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.co= m>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May= 14, 2011 11:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

=0ABrian,  =0A

=0A
A number of us in the rotary group = have had ignition issues with the EC-2.  I fought it for over a year, = not sure if it was ignition, tuning, or a little of both.  It was runn= ing pretty good, then I had the brilliant idea to  switch the 20B's CA= S over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted on the crank pulley).  Apparent= ly, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too much movement to produce a good clean= signal.  Finally, in desperation, I switched back to the original CAS= and the high rpm tuning problem was magically cured.  Not sure what t= ype CAS you're using, but you may want to put a scope on the lead to see wh= at is going on at high rpm.  
=0A

=0A
Mark &nbs= p; 

=0A
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 A= M, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
=0A
=0A
I've had the same thought- that up at higher= rpms I might be having some sort of ignition problem.  Adjusting the = mixture does seem to mitigate it somewhat, so that leads me to think that i= t is not an igntion problem. Also, it only seems to happen in flight, not o= n the ground, where the loads are a little different. So, I still have ques= tions about this, but I'm going to approach this from the mixture angle. If= I am having an igntion problem, it's only happening at almost full throttl= e and in flight, so I'm scratching my head trying to see how to test for th= is.
=0A
 
=0A
Brian Trubee

=0A


=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: St= even W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 = pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

=0A
=0A
=0ABrian (and anyone else with= more experience than me),
=0A
 
=0A
With my engine stand, primary injectors as small as 21 lb= and secondary injectors from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30= inches.  Mixtures from lean misfire to rich misfire have been set wit= h RPM up to 5800.  Although misfires can be induced with mixture, at n= o time was there anything that could be considered a backfire and certainly= nothing like a grenade.  In flight, I have induced misfires with rich= as well as lean mixtures again with nothing like the results you describe.=   My plane=E2=80=99s muffler is a hollow tube about 6 inches in diamet= er 3 feet long with a slightly less than 2=E2=80=9D diameter outlet and two= chambers inside separated by a conical wall.  This muffler would seem= to be more of a bomb than a grenade if a backfire were to happen.  Do= esn=E2=80=99t the fact that there is a viable fuel-air mixture in the exhau= st system seem to indicate that the problem may be ignition rather than mixture?  This is just a question, not intended = to be an answer.
=0A
           =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =     
=0A
Steve Boese
=0A
RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2
=0A
 <= /DIV>=0A
 =0A
   &nb= sp;
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Rotary motors in aircraf= t [mailto:flyrotary@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.= com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning
=
=0A
 
=0A
=0A

Since the weather has = been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to put a few more hours o= n the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idle up to full throttle an= d the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it seems that as soon as = I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get hellacious backfiring at fu= ll throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throttling back to about 5100 rpm, = and turning the mixture knob to near full rich. It's getting to be a bit ne= rve wracking to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out and then get a s= eries of hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking that I'm still= running too lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into the edit page = and richen up the mixture around those addresses. I think I'm creeping up o= n smooth full throttle running.
=0A
=0A
 
<= /DIV>=0A
=0A
The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at l= ess- so the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air = inlet a bit or restrict the outflow.
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Brian Trubee
=3D
=


--0-1715318220-1305436488=:68023--