X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.145] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with SMTP id 4983932 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 May 2011 01:05:41 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.145; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.105] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2011 05:05:06 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.76] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2011 05:05:05 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1013.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2011 05:05:05 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 907847.13151.bm@omp1013.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 67610 invoked by uid 60001); 15 May 2011 05:05:05 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1305435905; bh=xhWSjLZbdILK9NIbf7MMivJ+G81sBxeGfodCUtpa2jo=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=2S9ODqrip6bnGReAUJfPKmoPYC3QPiil6XDV2W+biypD3ZyXPRZ/slnwnQxEZETq9ZXageRe8+drACFxY3iq1TfL1BAa9dWUWsBhnZHivnG2pNFKjOhHAgxekQlo8d53NK786G98pmtAvnq/r6gVMJas6bLWoeSwa5aoN1LEfaM= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dtMAm7WYaghtLDNU4YkvBxyMovGKo4uVGvE+Ae8zLphkY7TpC5krXMv73F8VndGa7cgisa3qcVrWx8QcP/GD/BXH73s8y0yQV0xDmBZkmjETIR2psB0Qg6AOH6K13jcYkMix7KhllELkVP+csUOLQJzHx2xVjoahCSdFtw81K6M=; Message-ID: <687818.89959.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: .UAEd1UVM1kq.JSjmSRSL7D64IFhIfpHO4pQlavjIx.XvFU TlDR_P_4RTwXJ2Ezb0eWcFIr8bzEtowxTmdiv9I6JDZt7fgnMwuU5Tqr5iEj zRQ1cgC9_t5sKHLFtq4B._qV06sEaMJd_BGvH_xWSR5.xeQAyzbOxFdybbSG eyXed3Rp.nIr4Le5q.pMz_HSUesW68sUh7Ilnr.DKXO32nxoKcYoz3xCUKvx 53VWNOgk15xPxcGn9q99KswnPm6RhDR.phEBEQ1_gppwcxGWwlx51cJnWFhO H_fsQa5o3g4xZaevJuvvw0IOYGa.lzGo86.khAukV430sEJ054xErrhsOw1_ H.wV5xyJNRin7HwRv Received: from [208.114.42.1] by web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 14 May 2011 22:05:05 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/567 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.303096 References: Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 22:05:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1587062986-1305435905=:89959" --0-1587062986-1305435905=:89959 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian,=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 You are=C2=A0using the=C2=A0Renesis timin= g wheel and=C2=A0single sensor rather than the=0A93-95 13BREW wheel and dua= l sensor system I presume...........=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MIST= RAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____= ____________________________=0AFrom: "bktrub@aol.com" =0ATo= : Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, May = 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning=0A=0ASo Mark, = =0Ayour CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional distri= butor =0Abefore you changed it? =0A=0A=0AI'm going to go out to the airport= and do some ground running and I'll report =0Aback with the Map table valu= es and what kind of rpm and map address I get at =0AWOT. =0A=0A=0ABrian Tru= bee=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0ASent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning= =0A=0A=0ABrian,=C2=A0 =0A=0AMy ignition problem was only evident at 5800 rp= m and up. =C2=A0It ran fine below =0A5800. =C2=A0I could get there on the g= round since I have an adjustable prop. =C2=A0Maybe =0Ayou could borrow a sm= aller prop so you could replicate the problem on the =0Aground? =C2=A0=0A= =0AMark=C2=A0=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, wro= te:=0A=0AI've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I don= 't have a =0Ascope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at = or near WOT on =0Aclimbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on= the ground and cannot =0Aget the backfiring that I get in the air. There m= ust be enough of a difference =0Ain engine loading to cause the problem, so= I tend to think it's not ignition, =0Abecause if it were, I would be getti= ng the same problem on the ground. =0A=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Brian Trubee=0A>=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>From: Mark Steitle =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Se= nt: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning=0A= >=0A>=0A>Brian,=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>=0A>A number of us in the rotary group have h= ad ignition issues with the EC-2. =C2=A0I =0A>fought it for over a year, no= t sure if it was ignition, tuning, or a little of =0A>both. =C2=A0It was ru= nning pretty good, then I had the brilliant idea to =C2=A0switch the =0A>20= B's CAS over to a Renesis style CAS (mounted on the crank pulley). =0A>=C2= =A0Apparently, the 20B's eccentric shaft has too much movement to produce a= good =0A>clean signal. =C2=A0Finally, in desperation, I switched back to t= he original CAS and =0A>the high rpm tuning problem was magically cured. = =C2=A0Not sure what type CAS you're =0A>using, but you may want to put a sc= ope on the lead to see what is going on at =0A>high rpm. =C2=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>= Mark =C2=A0=C2=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, wrote:=0A>=0A>I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I migh= t be having some sort of =0A>ignition problem.=C2=A0 Adjusting the mixture = does seem to mitigate it somewhat, so =0A>that leads me to think that it is= not an igntion problem. Also, it only seems to =0A>happen in flight, not o= n the ground, where the loads are a little different. So, =0A>I still have = questions about this, but I'm going to approach this from the =0A>mixture a= ngle. If I am having an igntion problem, it's only happening at almost =0A>= full throttle and in flight, so I'm scratching my head trying to see how to= test =0A>for this. =0A>=0A>>=0A>>Brian Trubee=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>----= -Original Message-----=0A>>From: Steven W. Boese =0A>>To: = Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Fri, May = 13, 2011 10:28 pm=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>= Brian (and anyone else with more experience than me),=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>With m= y engine stand, primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary =0A>>inje= ctors from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches. =C2=A0Mixt= ures =0A>>from lean misfire to rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 58= 00.=C2=A0 Although =0A>>misfires can be induced with mixture, at no time wa= s there anything that could =0A>>be considered a backfire and certainly not= hing like a grenade.=C2=A0 In flight, I =0A>>have induced misfires with ric= h as well as lean mixtures again with nothing like =0A>>the results you des= cribe.=C2=A0 My plane=E2=80=99s muffler is a hollow tube about 6 inches in = =0A>>diameter 3 feet long with a slightly less than 2=E2=80=9D diameter out= let and two =0A>>chambers inside separated by a conical wall.=C2=A0 This mu= ffler would seem to be more =0A>>of a bomb than a grenade if a backfire wer= e to happen.=C2=A0 Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact that =0A>>there is a viable fue= l-air mixture in the exhaust system seem to indicate that =0A>>the problem = may be ignition rather than mixture?=C2=A0 This is just a question, not =0A= >>intended to be an answer.=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A>>Steve Boese=0A>>RV6A = 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=0A>>=C2= =A0=0A>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]= On Behalf Of =0A>>bktrub@aol.com=0A>>Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM=0A= >>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning=0A>>= =0A>>=0A>>Since the weather has been cooperating lately, I've had the oppor= tunity to put a =0A>>few more hours on the airplane. On the ground, I can g= o from an idle up to full =0A>>throttle and the engine will be smooth. But = when I take off, it seems that as =0A>>soon as I'm up a few hundred feet of= f the runway, I get hellacious backfiring at =0A>>full throttle. I can miti= gate it a bit by throttling back to about 5100 rpm, and =0A>>turning the mi= xture knob to near full rich. It's getting to be a bit nerve =0A>>wracking = to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out and then get a series of =0A>= >hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking that I'm still running= too =0A>>lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into the edit page and= richen up the =0A>>mixture around those addresses. I think I'm creeping up= on smooth full throttle =0A>>running.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>The good news is that= my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at less- so the =0A>>cooling is mor= e than effective, I just need to close up my air inlet a bit or =0A>>restri= ct the outflow.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Brian Trubee=3D =0A>=0A --0-1587062986-1305435905=:89959 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Brian,
=0A
     You ar= e using the Renesis timing wheel and single sensor rather th= an the
=0A
93-95 13BREW wheel and dual sensor system I presume....= ....... 
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"= DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Mani= fold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A=0A
=0AFrom: "bktrub@aol.com" <bktrub@aol.com>To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 8:59:15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

=0A
So Mark,
=0Ayour CAS was one of those that are configured like a conventional distri= butor before you changed it?
=0A
 
=0A
I'm going to= go out to the airport and do some ground running and I'll report back with= the Map table values and what kind of rpm and map address I get at WOT. =0A
 
=0A
Brian Trubee

=0A


=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Ste= itle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

=0A
Brian,  =0A

=0A
My ignition p= roblem was only evident at 5800 rpm and up.  It ran fine below 5800. &= nbsp;I could get there on the ground since I have an adjustable prop.  = ;Maybe you could borrow a smaller prop so you could replicate the problem o= n the ground?  
=0A

=0A
Mark 

=0AOn Sat, May 14, 2011 at 6:31 PM, <= ;bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
=0A=0A
I've got the crank angle sensor mounted on the crank pulley. I d= on't have a scope, but even if I did, the problem only seems to happen at o= r near WOT on climbout and in flight. I can run the engine wide open on the= ground and cannot get the backfiring that I get in the air. There must be = enough of a difference in engine loading to cause the problem, so I tend to= think it's not ignition, because if it were, I would be getting the same p= roblem on the ground.
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A 
=0A
Brian Trubee

=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 11:21 am
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine Tuning

=0A
Brian,  =0A

<= /DIV>=0A
A number of us in the rotary group have had ignition issues wi= th the EC-2.  I fought it for over a year, not sure if it was ignition= , tuning, or a little of both.  It was running pretty good, then I had= the brilliant idea to  switch the 20B's CAS over to a Renesis style C= AS (mounted on the crank pulley).  Apparently, the 20B's eccentric sha= ft has too much movement to produce a good clean signal.  Finally, in = desperation, I switched back to the original CAS and the high rpm tuning pr= oblem was magically cured.  Not sure what type CAS you're using, but y= ou may want to put a scope on the lead to see what is going on at high rpm.=  
=0A

=0A
Mark   

=0A
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:04 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
=0A
=0A<= DIV>I've had the same thought- that up at higher rpms I might be having som= e sort of ignition problem.  Adjusting the mixture does seem to mitiga= te it somewhat, so that leads me to think that it is not an igntion problem= . Also, it only seems to happen in flight, not on the ground, where the loa= ds are a little different. So, I still have questions about this, but I'm g= oing to approach this from the mixture angle. If I am having an igntion pro= blem, it's only happening at almost full throttle and in flight, so I'm scr= atching my head trying to see how to test for this.
=0A
 =0A
Brian Trubee

=0A

=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft= <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net>
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Engine Tuning

=0A
=0A
=0A
Brian (and anyone else with more experience than me= ),
=0A
 = ;
=0A
With m= y engine stand, primary injectors as small as 21 lb and secondary injectors= from 30 to 50 lb have been used, with MAP up to 30 inches.  Mixtures = from lean misfire to rich misfire have been set with RPM up to 5800.  = Although misfires can be induced with mixture, at no time was there anythin= g that could be considered a backfire and certainly nothing like a grenade.=   In flight, I have induced misfires with rich as well as lean mixture= s again with nothing like the results you describe.  My plane=E2=80=99= s muffler is a hollow tube about 6 inches in diameter 3 feet long with a sl= ightly less than 2=E2=80=9D diameter outlet and two chambers inside separat= ed by a conical wall.  This muffler would seem to be more of a bomb th= an a grenade if a backfire were to happen.  Doesn=E2=80=99t the fact t= hat there is a viable fuel-air mixture in the exhaust system seem to indica= te that the problem may be ignition rather than mixture?  This is just a question, not intended = to be an answer.
=0A
           =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =     
=0A
Steve Boese
=0A
RV6A 1986 13B NA RD1A EC2
=0A
 <= /DIV>=0A
 =0A
   &nb= sp;
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Rotary motors in aircraf= t [mailto:flyrotary@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of bktrub@aol.= com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:35 PM
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine Tuning
=
=0A
 
=0A
=0A

Since the weather has = been cooperating lately, I've had the opportunity to put a few more hours o= n the airplane. On the ground, I can go from an idle up to full throttle an= d the engine will be smooth. But when I take off, it seems that as soon as = I'm up a few hundred feet off the runway, I get hellacious backfiring at fu= ll throttle. I can mitigate it a bit by throttling back to about 5100 rpm, = and turning the mixture knob to near full rich. It's getting to be a bit ne= rve wracking to take off thinking I've got it smoothed out and then get a s= eries of hand grenades going off under my butt. I'm thinking that I'm still= running too lean up at map address 106 or so. So, I go into the edit page = and richen up the mixture around those addresses. I think I'm creeping up o= n smooth full throttle running.
=0A
=0A
 
<= /DIV>=0A
=0A
The good news is that my coolant runs at 175 degrees and oil at l= ess- so the cooling is more than effective, I just need to close up my air = inlet a bit or restrict the outflow.
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Brian Trubee
=3D
=


--0-1587062986-1305435905=:89959--