X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.fcdata.private) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2) with ESMTP id 4922863 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 19:25:43 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8]) by FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:20:26 -0500 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure Thread-Index: AQHL6vLdbh6FYCy3XkijWpP5huey6pQ+sXdA Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 23:23:49 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D303574E604@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [166.139.76.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D303574E604FCDMAIL06FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D303574E604FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, Come on brother....cracking the engine open gets MUCH easier the more you d= o it....I think all us here know how I know......(Ed too) Chris Houston ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Bill Bradburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 8:49 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of in= stallations...Coolant Pressure I have a 21 lb cap on my system for this very purpose. I don=92t presently= have a coolant recovery tank and if the cap burps, I could lose coolant ov= erboard. I am rethinking this and plan to install a coolant recovery tank = as well. By the way, on the high coolant pressure, in surfing the web I have found t= hat this problem is most likely caused by combustion gasses getting into th= e coolant. That would mean a busted o-ring. I have been in denial that th= is is the cause because I don=92t want to tear the engine down. Today I pl= an to see if I can find any coolant coming out of a sparkplug hole. Finger= s are crossed! Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 8:27 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of instal= lations...Coolant Pressure One thing to keep in mind about the pressure rating of the radiator cap you= are using. All are rated relative to a standard sea level ambinent pressu= re. This means that he air pressure itself is contributing 14.7 psi at sea= level. So at sea level when your differential pressure coolant gauge is reading 10= psi - the absolute pressure in your coolant system is then 14.7 + 10 =3D = 24.7 psi. Now if you are flying at 8000 MSL your ambient pressure is appro= x 1/2 at sea level. So your 14.7 psi CAP now has the lesser capacity of 7.= 3 + 10 =3D 17.3 psi absolute pressure capacity - somewhat less than the 24.= 7 psi absolute it had at sea level. When you increase in altitude this component naturally decreases. So while= a 14.7 psi CAP may work fine at sea level, more than one person found that= at altitude that rating was insufficient and some coolant was lost. I personally would not fly with less than a 21 psi cap and currently fly wi= th a 24 psi radiator cap. There is another factor that occurred to me. Once a hot coolant system blo= ws the relief valve on the cap, that lowers the pressure inside the system,= superheated (>212F) coolant can quickly flash to steam and further cause l= ost of coolant. So a Higher PSI cap can lessen the chance of that happenin= g. FWIW Ed From: Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:30 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure Lynn, You have hit my quandary squarely on the head. Assuming that the pressure = was zero at room temp and rose to say 6-7 pounds at 200 degrees, and assume= that the flow restriction in the system caused a pressure rise of about 2 = pounds at 2000 rpm and a pressure rise of, say, 6-7 pounds at 6000 rpm. Un= der that scenario, you would have a pressure that ran at between 7-9 pounds= at 2000 and rose to 12-14 pounds at 6000. Those pressures would be easily= contained with the stock cap of 14 pounds. And the pressure would be cons= tantly changing with rpm and possibly temp of the system as you were under = power or not. I have a 21 pound cap. My system climbs smartly to the top and stays there= . No fluctuation with rpm, no real fluctuation at temp because it has alre= ady hit the 21 pounds before the engine is actually hot. (around 190) Something is wrong and I don=92t understand what it is. Bobby I am going to insert answers to your questions in your msg below. Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:57 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure Bill, This is all I can think of at the moment. Are you running a thermostat or did you plug the hole between the inlets an= d outlets of the water pump? No thermostat. The Renesis has a thermostat tower which is too tall to fit= under my cowl, so I removed it and fabricated a flat plate with two 1.25 a= luminum tubes for the inlet and outlet of the water pump. That hole you ar= e referencing exists in the tower, but not in my plate. If plugged did you drill a small hole in the plug to allow air a place to e= scape? I used a #30 drill. Any air in my system would have to be carried to the highest point, (radiat= or cap) then be forced by pressure to the bottom of the swirl tank where it= would be trapped. This seems to be working because I have found that afte= r I open the system for some reason, the level in the swirl tank will go do= wn and there is never any air at the top of the radiator. After an engine run is the radiator the same temperature at the inlet / out= let / bottom and top? If I have trapped air only part of my radiator gets h= ot to the touch. Dual pass barrier leaking? Seems to be. I have mistakenly laid my arm on the top of the radiator afte= r a run=85usually I manage to get off pretty fast! :>) I can not see into= the radiator tank on the barrier side. It is possible it could be leaking= . I suppose if there was a rag in the thing it could be trapped here also.= I have no way to see in there even if the hose was removed. I would need= some kind of flexible camera or something like that. Use an extra CHT channel and clamp it to the inlet of your radiator to meas= ure Delta T. Good idea. I will have to rig one up. I don=92t have an extra now. My water pressure does not vary that much in operation. But it does hold a = little pressure for a few days after shutdown. 1-2 psi. What is your pressure during operation? What is the pressure cap rating? = Does it vary at all with temp and/or rpm? Mine is maxed out..always! What size hoses? I=92m running 1in. The RX-8 uses 1.25 hoses. I stuck with that size as well. Where are you measuring water pressure? The hose that comes off the top of the rear iron goes to the top of the rad= iator, just below the cap. A tee in this line has the water pressure sender= in it. The radiator cap is just a cap, not a pressure cap. The outlet in= the radiator neck goes to the bottom of the swirl tank. Is your pressure cap on the bleed / swirl tank? Yes. Any pictures of the plumbing? Not of the current setup. Bobby ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:23 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure I need some help with figuring out my cooling problems. Just so it doesn=92t get lost in the following BS, I need to state that I t= hink the problem is related to the coolant pressure. It seems to me to be = way too high. I am beginning to think that the coolant is somehow partiall= y blocked. Now the rest of the story=85. After I did the flight described in the attached email, I installed an open= ing in the bottom of the cowl that would work something like a cowl flap th= at is permanently open. The new opening is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq i= n.. There is a flare in front of the opening that is at an angle of 45 deg= rees and extends down into the airstream about 4 inches. (it is 6 inches l= ong.) This opening is in addition to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has = a 3 inch diameter exhaust pipe in it. This helped a little, but nothing like I expected it would. The pressure i= nside the radiator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 inches of wat= er. (by the way, Steve was right about it being inches of water and not in= ches of Hg.) The pressure after the radiator and inside the cowl dropped to 8 inches as = well. The temperature of the water dropped to 208 and the oil a couple of = degrees. Neither of these had the result that I expected. My water pressure cap is rated at 21 lbs. I have not calibrated the sender= that came with my EM-2 and it shows 3 lbs when the engine is cold. I assu= me that this is zero. When in flight the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and sta= ys there. I assume that at this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleedin= g off air. There is about a pint to a quart of air above the coolant in th= e bleed tank. This morning I ran the engine on the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an r= pm of 3000 to 3200. The OAT was 75 degrees. I read the temps and pressures every minute or two during the run. I hope = this doesn=92t get jumbled during transmission. Oil temp =96 80 103 130 139 = 144 155 162 165 Air temp after cooler - 97 109 = 122 129 133 134 Water temp - 86 126 161 173 = 178 190 198 199 Air temp after rad - 109 133 = 157 169 179 183 Water pressure - 2 11 17 20 = 21 24 I noticed that the water pressure could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by c= hanging the rpm while the engine was still relatively cool What should I expect for water pressure at lower temps and how could I go a= bout making a determination that the water passages are clear? I am beginning to think that a rag has been left either in the engine or th= e radiator. I have never torn the engine down and I sent the radiator out = to have a leak repair a couple of years ago. It is a double pass radiator.= I can look into the end that has both sides connected thru the radiator c= ap neck, but not into the inlet and outlet end. Suggestions??? Thanks, Bill B ________________________________ From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:29 PM To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' Subject: On the subject of installations... My water temp has been running between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT. = The oil is pretty steady at around 175. Today I finally got to fly with pr= essure probes inside the cowling. I was all set to try and enlarge the inl= et to the radiator to solve the problem. It turns out that =93in=94 is not= the problem, it is =93out=94 that is the problem! I have 10 inches of Hg pressure in the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg o= n the outlet side as well as the same pressure everywhere I measured inside= the cowl. I need to open up the cowl some so more air can get out. I had= considered a cowl flap but that would not work in this instance because th= e problem is at cruise. I need a permanent opening. I am considering louv= ers and I am looking for a source. I know some of you are using them. Whe= re did you get them and how are they installed so that they look ok? I am also considering some kind of flare around the exit area to create a l= ow pressure area to help suck air out. Do any of you have those and do the= y seem to work? While I look into this, I also need to do something about my muffler=85Than= k you, Bobby! I wonder about that spiral muffler some of you are trying?? Bill B 9 hours and counting=85 By the way, I was considering putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard= across the bottom of the oil cooler to partially block it in the hopes tha= t more air would then flow through the radiator. Sort of like truckers do = with the radiator in cold weather. What opinions do you have about that id= ea? I realize it would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I t= hink the oil might not get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked. What = do you think??? --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D303574E604FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,

 

Come on brother....cracking the engine open gets MUCH easier the more yo= u do it....I think all us here know how I know......(Ed too)

 

Chris

Houston

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bill Bradburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]<= br> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 8:49 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the subjec= t of installations...Coolant Pressure

I have a 21 lb = cap on my system for this very purpose.  I don=92t presently have a co= olant recovery tank and if the cap burps, I could lose coolant overboard.  I am rethinking this and plan to install a c= oolant recovery tank as well.

&= nbsp;

By the way, on = the high coolant pressure, in surfing the web I have found that this proble= m is most likely caused by combustion gasses getting into the coolant.  That would mean a busted o-ring.  I h= ave been in denial that this is the cause because I don=92t want to tear th= e engine down.  Today I plan to see if I can find any coolant coming o= ut of a sparkplug hole.  Fingers are crossed!

&= nbsp;

Bill B

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, March 25, 201= 1 8:27 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Radiat= or Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure<= /span>

 

One thing to keep in mind about the pressur= e rating of the radiator cap you are using.  All are rated relative to= a standard sea level ambinent pressure.  This means that he air pressure itself is contributing 14.7 psi at sea level.&n= bsp;

 

So at sea level when your differential pres= sure coolant gauge is reading 10 psi - the absolute pressure in your coolan= t system is then  14.7 + 10 =3D 24.7 psi.  Now if you are flying at 8000 MSL your ambient pressure is approx 1/2 at s= ea level.  So your 14.7 psi CAP now has the lesser capacity of 7.3 = 3; 10 =3D 17.3 psi absolute pressure capacity - somewhat less than the 24.7= psi absolute it had at sea level.

 

When you increase in altitude this componen= t naturally decreases.  So while a 14.7 psi CAP may work fine at sea l= evel, more than one person found that at altitude  that rating was  insufficient and some coolant was lost.

 

I personally would not fly with less than a= 21 psi cap and currently fly with a 24 psi radiator cap.

 

There is another factor that occurred to me= .  Once a hot coolant system blows the relief valve on the cap, t= hat lowers the pressure inside the system, superheated (>212F) coolant can quickly flash to steam and further cause lost of co= olant.  So a Higher PSI cap can lessen the chance of that happening.&n= bsp;

 

FWIW

 

Ed

 

Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:30 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure<= /font>

 

Lynn,

&= nbsp;

You have hit my= quandary squarely on the head.  Assuming that the pressure was zero a= t room temp and rose to say 6-7 pounds at 200 degrees, and assume that the flow restriction in the system caused a pressure rise = of about 2 pounds at 2000 rpm and a pressure rise of, say, 6-7 pounds at 60= 00 rpm.  Under that scenario, you would have a pressure that ran at be= tween 7-9 pounds at 2000 and rose to 12-14 pounds at 6000.  Those pressures would be easily contained with= the stock cap of 14 pounds.  And the pressure would be constantly cha= nging with rpm and possibly temp of the system as you were under power or n= ot.

&= nbsp;

I have a 21 pou= nd cap.  My system climbs smartly to the top and stays there.  No= fluctuation with rpm, no real fluctuation at temp because it has already hit the 21 pounds before the engine is actually hot.  = (around 190)

&= nbsp;

Something is wr= ong and I don=92t understand what it is.

&= nbsp;

Bobby

&= nbsp;

I am going to i= nsert answers to your questions in your msg below.

&= nbsp;

Bill B

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughe= s
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2= 011 1:57 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On= the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure

 

Bill,

&= nbsp;

This is all I c= an think of at the moment.

&= nbsp;

Are you running= a thermostat or did you plug the hole between the inlets and outlets of th= e water pump?

&= nbsp;

No thermostat.&nb= sp; The Renesis has a thermostat tower which is too tall to fit under my co= wl, so I removed it and fabricated a flat plate with two 1.25 aluminum tubes for the inlet and outlet of the water pump.&n= bsp; That hole you are referencing exists in the tower, but not in my plate= .

&= nbsp;

If plugged did = you drill a small hole in the plug to allow air a place to escape? I used a= #30 drill.

&= nbsp;

Any air in my sys= tem would have to be carried to the highest point, (radiator cap) then be f= orced by pressure to the bottom of the swirl tank where it would be trapped.  This seems to be working because I h= ave found that after I open the system for some reason, the level in the sw= irl tank will go down and there is never any air at the top of the radiator= .

&= nbsp;

After an engine= run is the radiator the same temperature at the inlet / outlet / bottom an= d top? If I have trapped air only part of my radiator gets hot to the touch. Dual pass barrier leaking?

&= nbsp;

Seems to be. = ; I have mistakenly laid my arm on the top of the radiator after a run=85us= ually I manage to get off pretty fast!  :>)  I can not see into the radiator tank on the barrier side.  It is possible i= t could be leaking.  I suppose if there was a rag in the thing it coul= d be trapped here also.  I have no way to see in there even if the hos= e was removed.  I would need some kind of flexible camera or something like that.

&= nbsp;

Use an extra CH= T channel and clamp it to the inlet of your radiator to measure Delta T.

&= nbsp;

Good idea.  = I will have to rig one up.  I don=92t have an extra now.=

&= nbsp;

My water pressu= re does not vary that much in operation. But it does hold a little pressure= for a few days after shutdown.  1-2 psi.

&= nbsp;

What is your pres= sure during operation?  What is the pressure cap rating?  Does it= vary at all with temp and/or rpm?  Mine is maxed out..always!<= /font>

&= nbsp;

What size hoses= ? I=92m running 1in.

&= nbsp;

The RX-8 uses 1.2= 5 hoses.  I stuck with that size as well.

&= nbsp;

Where are you m= easuring water pressure?  

&= nbsp;

The hose that com= es off the top of the rear iron goes to the top of the radiator, just below= the cap. A tee in this line has the water pressure sender in it.  The radiator cap is just a cap, not a pressur= e cap.  The outlet in the radiator neck goes to the bottom of the swir= l tank.

&= nbsp;

Is your pressur= e cap on the bleed / swirl tank?

&= nbsp;

Yes.

&= nbsp;

Any pictures of= the plumbing?

&= nbsp;

Not of the curren= t setup.

&= nbsp;

Bobby

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry=
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2= 011 10:23 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] On the= subject of installations...Coolant Pressure

 

I need some hel= p with figuring out my cooling problems.

&= nbsp;

Just so it does= n=92t get lost in the following BS, I need to state that I think the proble= m is related to the coolant pressure.  It seems to me to be way too high.  I am beginning to think that the coolant i= s somehow partially blocked.

&= nbsp;

Now the rest of= the story=85.

&= nbsp;

After I did the= flight described in the attached email, I installed an opening in the bott= om of the cowl that would work something like a cowl flap that is permanently open.  The new opening is 9 inches by= 5 inches or 54 sq in..  There is a flare in front of the opening that= is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends down into the airstream about 4 i= nches.  (it is 6 inches long.)  This opening is in addition to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter e= xhaust pipe in it.

&= nbsp;

This helped a l= ittle, but nothing like I expected it would.  The pressure inside the = radiator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 inches of water.  (by the way, Steve was right about it being in= ches of water and not inches of Hg.)

The pressure af= ter the radiator and inside the cowl dropped to 8 inches as well.  The= temperature of the water dropped to 208 and the oil a couple of degrees.  Neither of these had the result that I expe= cted.

&= nbsp;

My water pressu= re cap is rated at 21 lbs.  I have not calibrated the sender that came= with my EM-2 and it shows 3 lbs when the engine is cold.  I assume that this is zero.  When in flight the pressu= re climbs to 24 lbs and stays there.  I assume that at this point, the= cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off air.  There is about a pint to a= quart of air above the coolant in the bleed tank.

&= nbsp;

This morning I = ran the engine on the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of 3000 to 3= 200.  The OAT was 75 degrees.

&= nbsp;

I read the temp= s and pressures every minute or two during the run.  I hope this doesn= =92t get jumbled during transmission.

&= nbsp;

Oil temp =96 &n= bsp;            = ;        80     = ; 103      130     &= nbsp;        139    =          144    = ;       155     &nbs= p;    162         16= 5

Air temp after = cooler -            =    97       109  &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;    122        &n= bsp;   129          = 133         134

&= nbsp;

Water temp -&nb= sp;            =      86       126 &n= bsp;    161        &= nbsp;     173       =       178       = ;    190        &nbs= p; 198          199

Air temp after = rad -           &nbs= p;        109    &nb= sp; 133           &n= bsp;            = ;        157    &nbs= p;      169      &nb= sp;   179         &n= bsp; 183

&= nbsp;

Water pressure = -             2=           11   =      17         = ;      20      =          21    =             &nb= sp;           24 &nb= sp;   

&= nbsp;

I noticed that = the water pressure could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by changing the rpm= while the engine was still relatively cool

&= nbsp;

What should I e= xpect for water pressure at lower temps and how could I go about making a d= etermination that the water passages are clear?

&= nbsp;

I am beginning = to think that a rag has been left either in the engine or the radiator.&nbs= p; I have never torn the engine down and I sent the radiator out to have a leak repair a couple of years ago.  It is = a double pass radiator.  I can look into the end that has both sides c= onnected thru the radiator cap neck, but not into the inlet and outlet end.

&= nbsp;

Suggestions???<= /span>

&= nbsp;

Thanks,<= /font>

&= nbsp;

Bill B

&= nbsp;

From:= Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 201= 1 5:29 PM
To: 'Rotary motors in aircr= aft'
Subject: On the subject of = installations...

 

My water temp h= as been running between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT.  The oil is= pretty steady at around 175.  Today I finally got to fly with pressure probes inside the cowling.  I was all set to= try and enlarge the inlet to the radiator to solve the problem.  It t= urns out that =93in=94 is not the problem, it is =93out=94 that is the prob= lem!

&= nbsp;

I have 10 inche= s of Hg pressure in the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg on the outlet si= de as well as the same pressure everywhere I measured inside the cowl.  I need to open up the cowl some so more = air can get out.  I had considered a cowl flap but that would not work= in this instance because the problem is at cruise.  I need a permanen= t opening.  I am considering louvers and I am looking for a source.  I know some of you are using them.  Where did you= get them and how are they installed so that they look ok?

&= nbsp;

I am also consi= dering some kind of flare around the exit area to create a low pressure are= a to help suck air out.  Do any of you have those and do they seem to work?

&= nbsp;

While I look in= to this, I also need to do something about my muffler=85Thank you, Bobby!

&= nbsp;

I wonder about = that spiral muffler some of you are trying??

&= nbsp;

Bill B  9 = hours and counting=85

&= nbsp;

By the way, I w= as considering putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard across the bot= tom of the oil cooler to partially block it in the hopes that more air would then flow through the radiator.  Sor= t of like truckers do with the radiator in cold weather.  What opinion= s do you have about that idea?  I realize it would make more sense if = the oil was really cool, but I think the oil might not get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked.  What do you think?= ??

--_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D303574E604FCDMAIL06FCDATA_--