X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm28-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.190] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2) with SMTP id 4921668 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:44:16 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.190; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.104] by nm28.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2011 14:43:40 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.81] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2011 14:43:40 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1018.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2011 14:43:40 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 191016.3890.bm@omp1018.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 29179 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Mar 2011 14:43:40 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1301064220; bh=02bZ7ew6KKdh+eZmHNWcgkIhZwD+rXhApaFHox4d6kE=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=qTvm3gEjnRdIcNiCMMaGqCVmOgfe0HvDH6LIrgSW6dKsSc/6jumJZQ2qD+sGsRTwFs96vHsfimleZJyspnIgIK85kWUMBkGRWL4Yq43KaYAn44KWSZ3hs4o8rpPxjr0DzRTZq6BvI3I+qt5cHVKGESQC0Pja6eeYve1NHEBlUb4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=SrtOB1UFC92QVHz0FxDtsZoKNiT0HD9QFEY955Z46333qy6+Q1aymLon06GSe7eneZFXSlsZ8Kko5tpooKtnXvRe08RuUb8UvrmvMj5SLmfh/XkAM1sWg0ifLm5BDvfpTwwVIsfk65Y65n/wJNzQpnNdqnSRiCNJAGYsnp7ak9I=; Message-ID: <15138.21437.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 1abFN2AVM1n4y0_AcAatkL4d1Ecd_Fi7Z.M9HUgrfNxb_QZ Uvmghp6FIOlxayPtJ2_vD8LQ.kym902TsvwUggLOz.oEKzZc8ZDaErfzq9Hx sbVmDCSsqFkdDADUSmo8Rch4E5g_fsVhSjWfuQx9cJQZTwFEntksrMCKjGIN 6Rtv4cwTLm91spsLSheC5bgDaH0F_XkKbwyNfH59..BiREr56NiOINa0oku6 ywj5FLrzTEeTYtIC2sDVUgV6ozEMUKtHSKaSALBjJAHtF0QGsQAE6ffCZ47b .Zej5cWEKqRJl3PpxAhionnS_mHqgLsj7iqKUQP1xXSpfQrfx8cVs1RwSRfJ icZy8jxyiEmP5poWQ Received: from [208.114.38.195] by web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 07:43:39 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.295617 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 07:43:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure To: Rotary motors in aircraft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-345415323-1301064219=:21437" --0-345415323-1301064219=:21437 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill,=0A=C2=A0 I probably missed it but do you have coolant expansion tank = with air cushion =0Aspace=0Aabove coolant level in your cooling system ?...= ......Such as this =0AThis...............They=0Aeliminate hydraulic lock fr= om coolant expansion and resultant coolant =0Aloss..........=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A =0A=0ANo. 63656 =0A=0A=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE D= ELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTR= AL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____= ___________________________=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo:= Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Fri, March= 25, 2011 8:55:10 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] R= e: On the subject of =0Ainstallations...Coolant Pressure=0A=0ABill,=C2=A0 = =0A=0AYou can pressurize the cooling system and see if it holds pressure. = =C2=A0Auto parts =0Astores sell testers that fit in place of the radiator c= ap. =C2=A0I installed =0Aa=C2=A0Schroeder valve on my system and can read t= he coolant pressure off the EM-2. =0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A=0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0AOn F= ri, Mar 25, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Bill Bradburry =0Aw= rote:=0A=0AI have a 21 lb cap on my system for this very purpose.=C2=A0 I d= on=E2=80=99t presently have a =0Acoolant recovery tank and if the cap burps= , I could lose coolant overboard.=C2=A0 I =0Aam rethinking this and plan to= install a coolant recovery tank as well.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>By the way, on the h= igh coolant pressure, in surfing the web I have found that =0A>this problem= is most likely caused by combustion gasses getting into the =0A>coolant.= =C2=A0 That would mean a busted o-ring.=C2=A0 I have been in denial that th= is is =0A>the cause because I don=E2=80=99t want to tear the engine down.= =C2=A0 Today I plan to see if =0A>I can find any coolant coming out of a sp= arkplug hole.=C2=A0 Fingers are crossed!=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Bill B=0A>=C2=A0=0A>= =0A________________________________=0A=0A>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [m= ailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>Ed Anderson=0A>=0A>Sent= : Friday, March 25, 2011 8:27 AM=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of =0A>installa= tions...Coolant Pressure=0A>=C2=A0=0A>One thing to keep in mind about the p= ressure rating of the radiator cap you are =0A>using.=C2=A0 All are rated r= elative to a standard sea level ambinent pressure.=C2=A0 This =0A>means tha= t he air pressure itself is contributing 14.7 psi at sea level.=C2=A0 =0A>= =0A>=C2=A0=0A>So at sea level when your differential pressure coolant gauge= is reading 10 psi =0A>- the absolute pressure in your coolant system is th= en =C2=A014.7 + 10 =3D 24.7 psi.=C2=A0 =0A>Now if you are flying at 8000 MS= L your ambient pressure is approx 1/2 at sea =0A>level.=C2=A0 So your 14.7 = psi CAP now has the lesser capacity of 7.3 + 10 =3D 17.3 psi =0A>absolute p= ressure capacity - somewhat less than the 24.7 psi absolute it had at =0A>s= ea level.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>When you increase in altitude this component natural= ly decreases.=C2=A0 So while a =0A>14.7 psi CAP may work fine at sea level,= more than one person found that =0A>at=C2=A0altitude=C2=A0 that rating was= =C2=A0 insufficient and some coolant was lost.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I personally wo= uld not fly with less than a 21 psi cap and currently fly with a =0A>24 psi= radiator cap.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>There is another factor that occurred to me.=C2= =A0 Once a=C2=A0hot coolant system blows =0A>the relief valve on the cap, t= hat lowers the pressure inside the system, =0A>superheated (>212F) coolant = can quickly flash to steam and further cause lost of =0A>coolant.=C2=A0 So = a Higher PSI cap can lessen the chance of that happening.=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>FWIW=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Ed=0A>=C2=A0=0A>From:Bill Bradburry =0A>Sent:Thurs= day, March 24, 2011 5:30 PM=0A>To:Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Subject:[Fl= yRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure=0A>=C2=A0= =0A>Lynn,=0A>=C2=A0=0A>You have hit my quandary squarely on the head.=C2=A0= Assuming that the pressure was =0A>zero at room temp and rose to say 6-7 p= ounds at 200 degrees, and assume that the =0A>flow restriction in the syste= m caused a pressure rise of about 2 pounds at 2000 =0A>rpm and a pressure r= ise of, say, 6-7 pounds at 6000 rpm.=C2=A0 Under that scenario, =0A>you wou= ld have a pressure that ran at between 7-9 pounds at 2000 and rose to =0A>1= 2-14 pounds at 6000.=C2=A0 Those pressures would be easily contained with t= he stock =0A>cap of 14 pounds.=C2=A0 And the pressure would be constantly c= hanging with rpm and =0A>possibly temp of the system as you were under powe= r or not.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I have a 21 pound cap.=C2=A0 My system climbs smartl= y to the top and stays there.=C2=A0 No =0A>fluctuation with rpm, no real fl= uctuation at temp because it has already hit the =0A>21 pounds before the e= ngine is actually hot.=C2=A0 (around 190)=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Something is wrong a= nd I don=E2=80=99t understand what it is.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Bobby=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I= am going to insert answers to your questions in your msg below.=0A>=C2=A0= =0A>Bill B=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>From:Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A= >Bobby J. Hughes=0A>Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:57 PM=0A>To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installation= s...Coolant Pressure=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Bill,=0A>=C2=A0=0A>This is all I can thin= k of at the moment. =0A>=C2=A0=0A>Are you running a thermostat or did you p= lug the hole between the inlets and =0A>outlets of the water pump? =0A>=0A>= =C2=A0=0A>No thermostat.=C2=A0 The Renesis has a thermostat tower which is = too tall to fit =0A>under my cowl, so I removed it and fabricated a flat pl= ate with two 1.25 =0A>aluminum tubes for the inlet and outlet of the water = pump.=C2=A0 That hole you are =0A>referencing exists in the tower, but not = in my plate.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>If plugged did you drill a small hole in the plug= to allow air a place to =0A>escape? I used a #30 drill. =0A>=0A>=C2=A0=0A>= Any air in my system would have to be carried to the highest point, (radiat= or =0A>cap) then be forced by pressure to the bottom of the swirl tank wher= e it would =0A>be trapped.=C2=A0 This seems to be working because I have fo= und that after I open the =0A>system for some reason, the level in the swir= l tank will go down and there is =0A>never any air at the top of the radiat= or.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>After an engine run is the radiator the same temperature a= t the inlet / outlet / =0A>bottom and top? If I have trapped air only part = of my radiator gets hot to the =0A>touch. Dual pass barrier leaking?=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>Seems to be.=C2=A0 I have mistakenly laid my arm on the top of the r= adiator after a =0A>run=E2=80=A6usually I manage to get off pretty fast!=C2= =A0 :>)=C2=A0 I can not see into the =0A>radiator tank on the barrier side.= =C2=A0 It is possible it could be leaking.=C2=A0 I =0A>suppose if there was= a rag in the thing it could be trapped here also.=C2=A0 I have =0A>no way = to see in there even if the hose was removed.=C2=A0 I would need some kind = of =0A>flexible camera or something like that.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Use an extra CH= T channel and clamp it to the inlet of your radiator to measure =0A>Delta T= .=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Good idea.=C2=A0 I will have to rig one up.=C2=A0 I don=E2= =80=99t have an extra now.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>My water pressure does not vary tha= t much in operation. But it does hold a =0A>little pressure for a few days = after shutdown. =C2=A01-2 psi. =0A>=0A>=C2=A0=0A>What is your pressure duri= ng operation?=C2=A0 What is the pressure cap rating?=C2=A0 Does =0A>it vary= at all with temp and/or rpm?=C2=A0 Mine is maxed out..always!=0A>=C2=A0=0A= >What size hoses? I=E2=80=99m running 1in. =0A>=C2=A0=0A>The RX-8 uses 1.25= hoses.=C2=A0 I stuck with that size as well.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Where are you me= asuring water pressure? =C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>The hose that comes off the top= of the rear iron goes to the top of the =0A>radiator, just below the cap. = A tee in this line has the water pressure sender =0A>in it.=C2=A0 The radia= tor cap is just a cap, not a pressure cap.=C2=A0 The outlet in the =0A>radi= ator neck goes to the bottom of the swirl tank.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Is your pressu= re cap on the bleed / swirl tank?=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Yes.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Any pictur= es of the plumbing?=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Not of the current setup.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Bob= by=0A>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>From:Rotary motors in aircr= aft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>Bill Bradburry=0A= >Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:23 AM=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft= =0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure= =0A>=C2=A0=0A>I need some help with figuring out my cooling problems.=0A>= =C2=A0=0A>Just so it doesn=E2=80=99t get lost in the following BS, I need t= o state that I think =0A>the problem is related to the coolant pressure.=C2= =A0 It seems to me to be way too =0A>high.=C2=A0 I am beginning to think th= at the coolant is somehow partially blocked.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Now the rest of t= he story=E2=80=A6.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>After I did the flight described in the att= ached email, I installed an opening =0A>in the bottom of the cowl that woul= d work something like a cowl flap that is =0A>permanently open.=C2=A0 The n= ew opening is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq in..=C2=A0 There =0A>is a flare= in front of the opening that is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends =0A>= down into the airstream about 4 inches.=C2=A0 (it is 6 inches long.)=C2=A0 = This opening is =0A>in addition to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3= inch diameter exhaust =0A>pipe in it.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>This helped a little, b= ut nothing like I expected it would.=C2=A0 The pressure inside =0A>the radi= ator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 inches of water.=C2=A0 (by = =0A>the way, Steve was right about it being inches of water and not inches = of Hg.)=0A>The pressure after the radiator and inside the cowl dropped to 8= inches as =0A>well.=C2=A0 The temperature of the water dropped to 208 and = the oil a couple of =0A>degrees.=C2=A0 Neither of these had the result that= I expected.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>My water pressure cap is rated at 21 lbs.=C2=A0 I= have not calibrated the sender that =0A>came with my EM-2 and it shows 3 l= bs when the engine is cold.=C2=A0 I assume that =0A>this is zero.=C2=A0 Whe= n in flight the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays there.=C2=A0 I =0A>assu= me that at this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off air.=C2=A0 = There =0A>is about a pint to a quart of air above the coolant in the bleed = tank.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>This morning I ran the engine on the ground for about 10= -15 minutes at an rpm of =0A>3000 to 3200.=C2=A0 The OAT was 75 degrees.=0A= >=C2=A0=0A>I read the temps and pressures every minute or two during the ru= n.=C2=A0 I hope this =0A>doesn=E2=80=99t get jumbled during transmission. = =0A>=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Oil temp =E2=80=93 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A080 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0103=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 130=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A>139=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 144=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 155=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 162= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 165=0A>Air temp after cool= er - =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A097=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A>109=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 122=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 129=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 133=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 134=0A>=C2=A0=0A= >Water temp -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 86=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 126=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 161=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 173=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A>178=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 190=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 198=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 199=0A>Air temp after rad -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 109=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A>133=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 157=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 169=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 179=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 183=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Water = pressure -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 11=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 17=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A020=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 21=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 24=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I noticed that th= e water pressure could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by =0A>changing the r= pm while the engine was still relatively cool=0A>=C2=A0=0A>What should I ex= pect for water pressure at lower temps and how could I go about =0A>making = a determination that the water passages are clear?=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I am beginn= ing to think that a rag has been left either in the engine or the =0A>radia= tor.=C2=A0 I have never torn the engine down and I sent the radiator out to= have =0A>a leak repair a couple of years ago.=C2=A0 It is a double pass ra= diator.=C2=A0 I can look =0A>into the end that has both sides connected thr= u the radiator cap neck, but not =0A>into the inlet and outlet end. =0A>=0A= >=C2=A0=0A>Suggestions???=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Thanks,=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Bill B=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>From:Bill Bradburry [mailt= o:bbradburry@bellsouth.net] =0A>Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:29 PM=0A>To:= 'Rotary motors in aircraft'=0A>Subject: On the subject of installations...= =0A>=C2=A0=0A>My water temp has been running between 199 and 217, depending= on the OAT.=C2=A0 The =0A>oil is pretty steady at around 175.=C2=A0 Today = I finally got to fly with pressure =0A>probes inside the cowling.=C2=A0 I w= as all set to try and enlarge the inlet to the =0A>radiator to solve the pr= oblem.=C2=A0 It turns out that =E2=80=9Cin=E2=80=9D is not the problem, it = is =0A>=E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D that is the problem!=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I have 10 in= ches of Hg pressure in the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg on the =0A>ou= tlet side as well as the same pressure everywhere I measured inside the cow= l.=C2=A0 =0A>I need to open up the cowl some so more air can get out.=C2=A0= I had considered a =0A>cowl flap but that would not work in this instance = because the problem is at =0A>cruise.=C2=A0 I need a permanent opening.=C2= =A0 I am considering louvers and I am looking =0A>for a source.=C2=A0 I kno= w some of you are using them.=C2=A0 Where did you get them and =0A>how are = they installed so that they look ok?=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I am also considering som= e kind of flare around the exit area to create a low =0A>pressure area to h= elp suck air out.=C2=A0 Do any of you have those and do they seem =0A>to wo= rk?=0A>=C2=A0=0A>While I look into this, I also need to do something about = my muffler=E2=80=A6Thank you, =0A>Bobby!=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I wonder about that s= piral muffler some of you are trying??=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Bill B=C2=A0 9 hours an= d counting=E2=80=A6=0A>=C2=A0=0A>By the way, I was considering putting a 1 = or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard =0A>across the bottom of the oil cooler t= o partially block it in the hopes that more =0A>air would then flow through= the radiator.=C2=A0 Sort of like truckers do with the =0A>radiator in cold= weather.=C2=A0 What opinions do you have about that idea?=C2=A0 I realize = =0A>it would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I think the oi= l might =0A>not get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked.=C2=A0 What do= you think???=0A --0-345415323-1301064219=:21437 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bill,
=0A
  I probably miss= ed it but do you have coolant expansion tank with air cushion space
= =0A
above coolant level in your cooling system ?.........Such as this T= his...............They
=0A
eliminate hydraulic lock from coolant e= xpansion and resultant coolant loss..........
=0A
 
=0A<= DIV>            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;      =0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A
3D"No.=
No. 63656


 <= /DIV>
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Eng= ine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TUR= BONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0A= From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 8:55:10 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the= subject of installations...Coolant Pressure

Bill,  =0A<= DIV>
=0A
You can pressurize the cooling system and see if it h= olds pressure.  Auto parts stores sell testers that fit in place of th= e radiator cap.  I installed a Schroeder valve on my system and c= an read the coolant pressure off the EM-2.   

=0AMark
=0A

=0A
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at= 8:49 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
=0A=0A
=0A
=0A

I have a 21 lb cap on my system= for this very purpose.  I don=E2=80=99t presently have a coolant reco= very tank and if the cap burps, I could lose coolant overboard.  I am = rethinking this and plan to install a coolant recovery tank as well.=

=0A

 

=0A

By th= e way, on the high coolant pressure, in surfing the web I have found that t= his problem is most likely caused by combustion gasses getting into the coo= lant.  That would mean a busted o-ring.  I have been in denial th= at this is the cause because I don=E2=80=99t want to tear the engine down.&= nbsp; Today I plan to see if I can find any coolant coming out of a sparkpl= ug hole.  Fingers are crossed!

=0A

 

=0A

Bill B

=0A

 

=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

From: Rotar= y motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] O= n Behalf Of Ed Anderson

=0A
=0A
=0A

Sent: Friday,= March 25, 2011 8:27 AM
To:<= /B> Rotary motors in aircraft
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Radiator Caps [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of = installations...Coolant Pressure
=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0A

 <= /P>=0A

=0A

One thing to keep in mind about th= e pressure rating of the radiator cap you are using.  All are rated re= lative to a standard sea level ambinent pressure.  This means that he = air pressure itself is contributing 14.7 psi at sea level. 

=0A
=0A

 

= =0A
=0A

So at sea level when your differential= pressure coolant gauge is reading 10 psi - the absolute pressure in your c= oolant system is then  14.7 + 10 =3D 24.7 psi.  Now if you are fl= ying at 8000 MSL your ambient pressure is approx 1/2 at sea level.  So= your 14.7 psi CAP now has the lesser capacity of 7.3 + 10 =3D 17.3 psi abs= olute pressure capacity - somewhat less than the 24.7 psi absolute it had a= t sea level.

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

When you increase = in altitude this component naturally decreases.  So while a 14.7 psi C= AP may work fine at sea level, more than one person found that at alti= tude  that rating was  insufficient and some coolant was lost.

=0A
=0A

 

<= /DIV>=0A
=0A

I personally would not fly with l= ess than a 21 psi cap and currently fly with a 24 psi radiator cap.<= /FONT>

=0A
=0A

 

= =0A
=0A

There is another factor that occurred = to me.  Once a hot coolant system blows the relief valve on the c= ap, that lowers the pressure inside the system, superheated (>212F) cool= ant can quickly flash to steam and further cause lost of coolant.  So = a Higher PSI cap can lessen the chance of that happening. 

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FWIW

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=0A 

=0A
=0A

Ed

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<= FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma> 

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=0A
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From:= Bill Bradburry

=0A
=0A=

Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:30 PM

=0A=0A
=0A

[FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of insta= llations...Coolant Pressure

=0A
=0A<= P class=3DMsoNormal> 

=0A

Lynn,

=0A

=  

=0A

You have hit my quandary squarely on the head.  Assuming that the = pressure was zero at room temp and rose to say 6-7 pounds at 200 degrees, a= nd assume that the flow restriction in the system caused a pressure rise of= about 2 pounds at 2000 rpm and a pressure rise of, say, 6-7 pounds at 6000= rpm.  Under that scenario, you would have a pressure that ran at betw= een 7-9 pounds at 2000 and rose to 12-14 pounds at 6000.  Those pressu= res would be easily contained with the stock cap of 14 pounds.  And th= e pressure would be constantly changing with rpm and possibly temp of the s= ystem as you were under power or not.

=0A

 

=0A

I have a 21 pound cap.  My syst= em climbs smartly to the top and stays there.  No fluctuation with rpm= , no real fluctuation at temp because it has already hit the 21 pounds befo= re the engine is actually hot.  (around 190)

=0A

 

=0A<= P class=3DMsoNormal>Something is wrong and I= don=E2=80=99t understand what it is.

=0A

 

=0A

Bobby

=0A

 

=0A

I am going to insert answer= s to your questions in your msg below.

=0A

 

=0A

Bill B

=0A

 

=0A=0A
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From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:57 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the sub= ject of installations...Coolant Pressure

=0A

 

=0A

Bill,

=0A

 

=0A

This is all I can think of at the moment.

=0A

 <= /FONT>

=0A

= Are you ru= nning a thermostat or did you plug the hole between the inlets and outlets = of the water pump?

=0A

 

=0A

No thermostat.  The Renesis has a thermostat tower = which is too tall to fit under my cowl, so I removed it and fabricated a fl= at plate with two 1.25 aluminum tubes for the inlet and outlet of the water= pump.  That hole you are referencing exists in the tower, but not in = my plate.

=0A

 

=0A

If plugged did you drill a small hole in the plug to allow air = a place to escape? I used a #30 drill.

=0A

 

=0A

Any air in my system would have to b= e carried to the highest point, (radiator cap) then be forced by pressure t= o the bottom of the swirl tank where it would be trapped.  This seems = to be working because I have found that after I open the system for some re= ason, the level in the swirl tank will go down and there is never any air a= t the top of the radiator.

=0A

 

=0A

After an engine run is the radiator the same te= mperature at the inlet / outlet / bottom and top? If I have trapped air onl= y part of my radiator gets hot to the touch. Dual pass barrier leaking?

=0A

 =

=0A

Se= ems to be.  I have mistakenly laid my arm on the top of the radiator a= fter a run=E2=80=A6usually I manage to get off pretty fast!  :>)&nb= sp; I can not see into the radiator tank on the barrier side.  It is p= ossible it could be leaking.  I suppose if there was a rag in the thin= g it could be trapped here also.  I have no way to see in there even i= f the hose was removed.  I would need some kind of flexible camera or = something like that.

=0A

 

=0A

Use an extra CHT channel and clamp it to the inlet = of your radiator to measure Delta T.

=0A

 

=0A

Good idea.  I will have to rig one= up.  I don=E2=80=99t have an extra now.

=0A

 

=0A

My water pressure does not = vary that much in operation. But it does hold a little pressure for a few d= ays after shutdown.  1-2 psi.

=0A

 

=0A

What is your pressure during operation?&= nbsp; What is the pressure cap rating?  Does it vary at all with temp = and/or rpm?  Mine is maxed out..always!

=0A

 

=0A

What size hoses? I=E2=80=99= m running 1in.

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=0A

The RX-8 uses 1.25 hoses.  I stuck with that size as we= ll.

=0A

 

=0A

Where are you measuring water pressure?  

=0A

 

= =0A

The hose that comes of= f the top of the rear iron goes to the top of the radiator, just below the = cap. A tee in this line has the water pressure sender in it.  The radi= ator cap is just a cap, not a pressure cap.  The outlet in the radiato= r neck goes to the bottom of the swirl tank.

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Is your pressure cap on the= bleed / swirl tank?

=0A

 

=0A

Yes.

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=0A

Any pictures of the plumbing?

= =0A

 =

=0A

Not of the current= setup.

=0A

 

=0A

Bobby

=0A
=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0A

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Bill Bradbur= ry
Sent: Thursday, March= 24, 2011 10:23 AM
To: R= otary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure

=0A

 

=0A

I need some help with figurin= g out my cooling problems.

=0A

 

=0A

Just so it doesn=E2=80=99t get lost in the foll= owing BS, I need to state that I think the problem is related to the coolan= t pressure.  It seems to me to be way too high.  I am beginning t= o think that the coolant is somehow partially blocked.

=0A=

 <= /P>=0A

Now the rest of t= he story=E2=80=A6.

=0A

 

=0A

After I did the flight described in the attached email,= I installed an opening in the bottom of the cowl that would work something= like a cowl flap that is permanently open.  The new opening is 9 inch= es by 5 inches or 54 sq in..  There is a flare in front of the opening= that is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends down into the airstream abou= t 4 inches.  (it is 6 inches long.)  This opening is in addition = to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter exhaust pipe in i= t.

=0A

=  

=0A

This helped a little, but nothing like I expected it would.  The p= ressure inside the radiator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 inch= es of water.  (by the way, Steve was right about it being inches of wa= ter and not inches of Hg.)

=0A

The pressure after the radiator and inside the cowl= dropped to 8 inches as well.  The temperature of the water dropped to= 208 and the oil a couple of degrees.  Neither of these had the result= that I expected.

=0A

 

=0A

My water pressure cap is rated at 21 lbs.  I have = not calibrated the sender that came with my EM-2 and it shows 3 lbs when th= e engine is cold.  I assume that this is zero.  When in flight th= e pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays there.  I assume that at this po= int, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off air.  There is about a p= int to a quart of air above the coolant in the bleed tank.=0A

 

=0A

This morning I = ran the engine on the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of 3000 to 3= 200.  The OAT was 75 degrees.

=0A

 

=0A

I read the temps and pressures every mi= nute or two during the run.  I hope this doesn=E2=80=99t get jumbled d= uring transmission.

=0A

 

=0A

Oil temp =E2=80=93      &n= bsp;            = ;   80      103   &n= bsp;  130          &= nbsp;   139         =     144         = ;  155          162 =         165

=0A

Air temp after cooler -  &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;97       109     &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp; 122           = 129          133  &= nbsp;      134

=0A

 

=0A

Water temp -   &nbs= p;            &= nbsp; 86       126    &nb= sp; 161           &n= bsp;  173          &= nbsp;  178          = 190          198  &= nbsp;       199

=0A

Air temp after rad -  = ;            &n= bsp;     109      133 &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;     157       &n= bsp;   169          = 179           183<= /FONT>

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=  

=0A

Water = pressure -           = ;  2          11 &nb= sp;      17      &nb= sp;        20    &nb= sp;          21  &nb= sp;            =              24=      

=0A

 

=0A

I noticed that the water pressure could be= brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by changing the rpm while the engine was still= relatively cool

=0A

 

=0A

What should I expect for water pressure at lower temps = and how could I go about making a determination that the water passages are= clear?

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I am beginning to think that a rag has been left either in the eng= ine or the radiator.  I have never torn the engine down and I sent the= radiator out to have a leak repair a couple of years ago.  It is a do= uble pass radiator.  I can look into the end that has both sides conne= cted thru the radiator cap neck, but not into the inlet and outlet end.

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S= uggestions???

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Thanks,

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Bill B

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= My water temp has been running between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT.&n= bsp; The oil is pretty steady at around 175.  Today I finally got to f= ly with pressure probes inside the cowling.  I was all set to try and = enlarge the inlet to the radiator to solve the problem.  It turns out = that =E2=80=9Cin=E2=80=9D is not the problem, it is =E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D t= hat is the problem!

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I have 10 inches of Hg pressure in the radiator inlet = and 10 inches of Hg on the outlet side as well as the same pressure everywh= ere I measured inside the cowl.  I need to open up the cowl some so mo= re air can get out.  I had considered a cowl flap but that would not w= ork in this instance because the problem is at cruise.  I need a perma= nent opening.  I am considering louvers and I am looking for a source.=   I know some of you are using them.  Where did you get them and = how are they installed so that they look ok?

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I am also considering some = kind of flare around the exit area to create a low pressure area to help su= ck air out.  Do any of you have those and do they seem to work?=

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While= I look into this, I also need to do something about my muffler=E2=80=A6Tha= nk you, Bobby!

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I wonder about that spiral muffler some of you are trying??=

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Bill B  9 hours and counting=E2=80=A6

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By the way, I was consideri= ng putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard across the bottom of the o= il cooler to partially block it in the hopes that more air would then flow = through the radiator.  Sort of like truckers do with the radiator in c= old weather.  What opinions do you have about that idea?  I reali= ze it would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I think the oil= might not get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked.  What do you = think???

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