X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost04.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2) with ESMTP id 4920961 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:41:12 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.54; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-85-145-79.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.145.79]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc04) with SMTP id <20110324214033H040017sude>; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:40:33 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.145.79] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:40:40 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01CBEA4A.985D1E30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcvqaDGcvIHDUWKDTDSHEbNMZocGYwAAtI5Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CBEA4A.985D1E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, I am reading the pressure at a location that shares water that has been halfway thru a double pass radiator with water that comes off the top of the rear iron. This water has been halfway thru the engine. I am very interested in learning what pressures you guys are running at and at what temperatures. Also does your pressures vary with temp and rpm. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Schertz Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:12 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure A question - Where are you measuring the water pressure? If the pressure is measured at the outlet of the water pump, between the water pump and the radiator core, you will be measuring the static pressure of the coolant, and the dynamic pressure due to pressure drop through the radiator. This pressure will go up and down with rpm. If measuring on the inlet side of the pump, it should be relatively rpm independent, but rise with temperature as the engine warms up. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase one testing Completed From: Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:22 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure I need some help with figuring out my cooling problems. Just so it doesn't get lost in the following BS, I need to state that I think the problem is related to the coolant pressure. It seems to me to be way too high. I am beginning to think that the coolant is somehow partially blocked. Now the rest of the story.. After I did the flight described in the attached email, I installed an opening in the bottom of the cowl that would work something like a cowl flap that is permanently open. The new opening is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq in.. There is a flare in front of the opening that is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends down into the airstream about 4 inches. (it is 6 inches long.) This opening is in addition to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter exhaust pipe in it. This helped a little, but nothing like I expected it would. The pressure inside the radiator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 inches of water. (by the way, Steve was right about it being inches of water and not inches of Hg.) The pressure after the radiator and inside the cowl dropped to 8 inches as well. The temperature of the water dropped to 208 and the oil a couple of degrees. Neither of these had the result that I expected. My water pressure cap is rated at 21 lbs. I have not calibrated the sender that came with my EM-2 and it shows 3 lbs when the engine is cold. I assume that this is zero. When in flight the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays there. I assume that at this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off air. There is about a pint to a quart of air above the coolant in the bleed tank. This morning I ran the engine on the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of 3000 to 3200. The OAT was 75 degrees. I read the temps and pressures every minute or two during the run. I hope this doesn't get jumbled during transmission. Oil temp - 80 103 130 139 144 155 162 165 Air temp after cooler - 97 109 122 129 133 134 Water temp - 86 126 161 173 178 190 198 199 Air temp after rad - 109 133 157 169 179 183 Water pressure - 2 11 17 20 21 24 I noticed that the water pressure could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by changing the rpm while the engine was still relatively cool What should I expect for water pressure at lower temps and how could I go about making a determination that the water passages are clear? I am beginning to think that a rag has been left either in the engine or the radiator. I have never torn the engine down and I sent the radiator out to have a leak repair a couple of years ago. It is a double pass radiator. I can look into the end that has both sides connected thru the radiator cap neck, but not into the inlet and outlet end. Suggestions??? Thanks, Bill B _____ From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:29 PM To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' Subject: On the subject of installations... My water temp has been running between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT. The oil is pretty steady at around 175. Today I finally got to fly with pressure probes inside the cowling. I was all set to try and enlarge the inlet to the radiator to solve the problem. It turns out that "in" is not the problem, it is "out" that is the problem! I have 10 inches of Hg pressure in the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg on the outlet side as well as the same pressure everywhere I measured inside the cowl. I need to open up the cowl some so more air can get out. I had considered a cowl flap but that would not work in this instance because the problem is at cruise. I need a permanent opening. I am considering louvers and I am looking for a source. I know some of you are using them. Where did you get them and how are they installed so that they look ok? I am also considering some kind of flare around the exit area to create a low pressure area to help suck air out. Do any of you have those and do they seem to work? While I look into this, I also need to do something about my muffler.Thank you, Bobby! I wonder about that spiral muffler some of you are trying?? Bill B 9 hours and counting. By the way, I was considering putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard across the bottom of the oil cooler to partially block it in the hopes that more air would then flow through the radiator. Sort of like truckers do with the radiator in cold weather. What opinions do you have about that idea? I realize it would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I think the oil might not get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked. What do you think??? ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CBEA4A.985D1E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,

I am reading the pressure at a = location that shares water that has been halfway thru a double pass radiator with = water that comes off the top of the rear iron.  This water has been = halfway thru the engine.

 

I am very interested in learning = what pressures you guys are running at and at what temperatures.  Also = does your pressures vary with temp and rpm.

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill = Schertz
Sent: Thursday, March 24, = 2011 5:12 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure

 

A  question – Where are = you measuring the water pressure?

 

=

If the pressure is measured at the = outlet of the water pump, between the water pump and the radiator core, you = will be measuring the static pressure of the coolant, and the dynamic pressure = due to pressure drop through the radiator.  This pressure will go up and = down with rpm.

 

=

If measuring on the inlet side of = the pump, it should be relatively rpm independent, but rise with temperature = as the engine warms up.

 

=

Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase one testing Completed

 

Sent: Thursday, = March 24, 2011 11:22 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant = Pressure

 

I need some help with figuring out = my cooling problems.

 

Just so it doesn’t get lost = in the following BS, I need to state that I think the problem is related to the coolant pressure.  It seems to me to be way too high.  I am = beginning to think that the coolant is somehow partially = blocked.

 

Now the rest of the = story….

 

After I did the flight described in = the attached email, I installed an opening in the bottom of the cowl that = would work something like a cowl flap that is permanently open.  The new = opening is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq in..  There is a flare in front of = the opening that is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends down into the = airstream about 4 inches.  (it is 6 inches long.)  This opening is in = addition to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter exhaust pipe = in it.

 

This helped a little, but nothing = like I expected it would.  The pressure inside the radiator inlet dropped = from 10 inches of water to 8 inches of water.  (by the way, Steve was right = about it being inches of water and not inches of = Hg.)

The pressure after the radiator and = inside the cowl dropped to 8 inches as well.  The temperature of the water dropped to 208 and the oil a couple of degrees.  Neither of these = had the result that I expected.

 

My water pressure cap is rated at = 21 lbs.  I have not calibrated the sender that came with my EM-2 and = it shows 3 lbs when the engine is cold.  I assume that this is zero.  = When in flight the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays there.  I assume = that at this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off air.  There is = about a pint to a quart of air above the coolant in the bleed = tank.

 

This morning I ran the engine on = the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of 3000 to 3200.  The OAT = was 75 degrees.

 

I read the temps and pressures = every minute or two during the run.  I hope this doesn’t get = jumbled during transmission.

 

Oil temp –           =            80      103      130           &nbs= p;  139           &nbs= p; 144           155          = 162         165

Air temp after cooler -            =    97       109           &nbs= p;            = ;        122            129          133         = 134

 

Water temp -            =       86       126      161           &nbs= p;  173           &nbs= p; 178           190          198          = 199

Air temp after rad -            =         109      133           &nbs= p;            = ;        157           169          179           = 183

 

Water pressure -            = 2          11        17            = ;   20            = ;   21            = ;            =     24     

 

I noticed that the water pressure = could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by changing the rpm while the engine was = still relatively cool

 

What should I expect for water = pressure at lower temps and how could I go about making a determination that the = water passages are clear?

 

I am beginning to think that a rag = has been left either in the engine or the radiator.  I have never torn = the engine down and I sent the radiator out to have a leak repair a couple = of years ago.  It is a double pass radiator.  I can look into the end = that has both sides connected thru the radiator cap neck, but not into the inlet = and outlet end.

 

Suggestions???

 

Thanks,

=

 

Bill B

 

From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, = 2011 5:29 PM
To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft'
Subject: On the subject = of installations...

 

My water temp has been running = between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT.  The oil is pretty steady at around 175.  Today I finally got to fly with pressure probes inside the cowling.  I was all set to try and enlarge the inlet to the = radiator to solve the problem.  It turns out that “in” is not the = problem, it is “out” that is the = problem!

 

I have 10 inches of Hg pressure in = the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg on the outlet side as well as the = same pressure everywhere I measured inside the cowl.  I need to open up = the cowl some so more air can get out.  I had considered a cowl flap = but that would not work in this instance because the problem is at cruise.  = I need a permanent opening.  I am considering louvers and I am looking for = a source.  I know some of you are using them.  Where did you get = them and how are they installed so that they look = ok?

 

I am also considering some kind of = flare around the exit area to create a low pressure area to help suck air = out.  Do any of you have those and do they seem to = work?

 

While I look into this, I also need = to do something about my muffler…Thank you, = Bobby!

 

I wonder about that spiral muffler = some of you are trying??

 

Bill B  9 hours and = counting…

 

By the way, I was considering = putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard across the bottom of the oil cooler to partially block it in the hopes that more air would then flow through = the radiator.  Sort of like truckers do with the radiator in cold weather.  What opinions do you have about that idea?  I = realize it would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I think the oil = might not get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked.  What do you = think???

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