X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.178] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2) with SMTP id 4920955 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:36:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.178; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.104] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Mar 2011 21:36:10 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.65] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Mar 2011 21:36:10 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1002.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Mar 2011 21:36:10 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 290266.49275.bm@omp1002.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 35031 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Mar 2011 21:36:10 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1301002570; bh=iPezZDHzOwU8NaI10h93uywXgyqTPGThY7q7wB/HrLU=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CV9JgdXlBKNuv0/3ufcIlwRzHQg/HQbOGLqw64ChTnk2/CcqAGMNXEqRCZ714dmvb+xWtamHEp/JelafyjwJi92wb7emkJ5fyWZA/gp0yAeQYxAPuEGY4JxwmPXWizoy0nQhMYLyPpKQbeE9NPrVdIHE7IpfeLR1h619esZYgU8= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DSAgJB7/fTaR39z6dAJ6z/4Vknd9Fld2mzSVJ8wElSsj8kgzRrFvNolAdJylNAGfMj7dMet81PEf0747/2eMu1QGN2OJ0UDf9GSFlcpj7fKGO6snGypJgIscugvtybo55kPsG4rkk4YqPtVtTP5pBrS6h4rrhdAEsnAwwifxnF4=; Message-ID: <37629.28983.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: O20Ml5QVM1n5AoLHBcEiySvFsvknbR1xW_0eINWqfcP1C67 d5NNNxwZ5YpDrrq1roM1Vi8jwegHWyNMTkuoYgA8jB6BEgV5G33tM9l0hOMP 2PD3RxpVY5MO4PBHZH7gV7P9PF4fQDk7Y_AX_GzjblLTzZPUnxS4Pc2aGD.E CaKeHZKR0IDWWqfb2VIDZLdRuERKyGnhtlDJZAP4428TXxdWHFVIFHiLy0de evvnEh11NiiEy5KW7UKEg18TixuOTOeALEv_rCN0R759uriIEAG8TGxYOrAn pw0t4fTx1SEujqxf71zKx3S1Ma27f6m58KpcvPQPT5hA8fCC7Bcv_R6ic641 bvUL0nhlGYYyUM_BP Received: from [208.114.45.163] by web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:36:09 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.295617 References: Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:36:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-122252611-1301002569=:28983" --0-122252611-1301002569=:28983 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill,=0A=C2=A0Have you checked for compression=C2=A0leak into water jacket = =0A??.............Hopefully that is not it !!...............=0A=C2=A0=0AKel= ly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Bill Bradburry =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Thu, March 24, 2011 4:30:31 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re:= On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure=0A=0A=0ALynn,=0A=C2=A0= =0AYou have hit my quandary squarely on the head.=C2=A0 Assuming that the p= ressure was =0Azero at room temp and rose to say 6-7 pounds at 200 degrees,= and assume that the =0Aflow restriction in the system caused a pressure ri= se of about 2 pounds at 2000 =0Arpm and a pressure rise of, say, 6-7 pounds= at 6000 rpm.=C2=A0 Under that scenario, =0Ayou would have a pressure that = ran at between 7-9 pounds at 2000 and rose to =0A12-14 pounds at 6000.=C2= =A0 Those pressures would be easily contained with the stock =0Acap of 14 p= ounds.=C2=A0 And the pressure would be constantly changing with rpm and =0A= possibly temp of the system as you were under power or not.=0A=C2=A0=0AI ha= ve a 21 pound cap.=C2=A0 My system climbs smartly to the top and stays ther= e.=C2=A0 No =0Afluctuation with rpm, no real fluctuation at temp because it= has already hit the =0A21 pounds before the engine is actually hot.=C2=A0 = (around 190)=0A=C2=A0=0ASomething is wrong and I don=E2=80=99t understand w= hat it is.=0A=C2=A0=0ABobby=0A=C2=A0=0AI am going to insert answers to your= questions in your msg below.=0A=C2=A0=0ABill B=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A_____________= ___________________=0A=0AFrom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0ABobby J. Hughes=0ASent: Thursday, March 2= 4, 2011 1:57 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: = On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure=0A=C2=A0=0ABill,=0A=C2= =A0=0AThis is all I can think of at the moment. =0A=C2=A0=0AAre you running= a thermostat or did you plug the hole between the inlets and =0Aoutlets of= the water pump? =0A=0A=C2=A0=0ANo thermostat.=C2=A0 The Renesis has a ther= mostat tower which is too tall to fit =0Aunder my cowl, so I removed it and= fabricated a flat plate with two 1.25 =0Aaluminum tubes for the inlet and = outlet of the water pump.=C2=A0 That hole you are =0Areferencing exists in = the tower, but not in my plate.=0A=C2=A0=0AIf plugged did you drill a small= hole in the plug to allow air a place to =0Aescape? I used a #30 drill. = =0A=0A=C2=A0=0AAny air in my system would have to be carried to the highest= point, (radiator =0Acap) then be forced by pressure to the bottom of the s= wirl tank where it would =0Abe trapped.=C2=A0 This seems to be working beca= use I have found that after I open the =0Asystem for some reason, the level= in the swirl tank will go down and there is =0Anever any air at the top of= the radiator.=0A=C2=A0=0AAfter an engine run is the radiator the same temp= erature at the inlet / outlet / =0Abottom and top? If I have trapped air on= ly part of my radiator gets hot to the =0Atouch. Dual pass barrier leaking?= =0A=C2=A0=0ASeems to be.=C2=A0 I have mistakenly laid my arm on the top of = the radiator after a =0Arun=E2=80=A6usually I manage to get off pretty fast= !=C2=A0 :>)=C2=A0 I can not see into the =0Aradiator tank on the barrier si= de.=C2=A0 It is possible it could be leaking.=C2=A0 I =0Asuppose if there w= as a rag in the thing it could be trapped here also.=C2=A0 I have =0Ano way= to see in there even if the hose was removed.=C2=A0 I would need some kind= of =0Aflexible camera or something like that.=0A=C2=A0=0AUse an extra CHT = channel and clamp it to the inlet of your radiator to measure =0ADelta T.= =0A=C2=A0=0AGood idea.=C2=A0 I will have to rig one up.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80= =99t have an extra now.=0A=C2=A0=0AMy water pressure does not vary that muc= h in operation. But it does hold a =0Alittle pressure for a few days after = shutdown. =C2=A01-2 psi. =0A=0A=C2=A0=0AWhat is your pressure during operat= ion?=C2=A0 What is the pressure cap rating?=C2=A0 Does =0Ait vary at all wi= th temp and/or rpm?=C2=A0 Mine is maxed out..always!=0A=C2=A0=0AWhat size h= oses? I=E2=80=99m running 1in. =0A=C2=A0=0AThe RX-8 uses 1.25 hoses.=C2=A0 = I stuck with that size as well.=0A=C2=A0=0AWhere are you measuring water pr= essure? =C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0AThe hose that comes off the top of the rear iron = goes to the top of the =0Aradiator, just below the cap. A tee in this line = has the water pressure sender =0Ain it.=C2=A0 The radiator cap is just a ca= p, not a pressure cap.=C2=A0 The outlet in the =0Aradiator neck goes to the= bottom of the swirl tank.=0A=C2=A0=0AIs your pressure cap on the bleed / s= wirl tank?=0A=C2=A0=0AYes.=0A=C2=A0=0AAny pictures of the plumbing?=0A=C2= =A0=0ANot of the current setup.=0A=C2=A0=0ABobby=0A=0A_____________________= ___________=0A=0AFrom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancairon= line.net] On Behalf Of =0ABill Bradburry=0ASent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1= 0:23 AM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] On the subje= ct of installations...Coolant Pressure=0A=C2=A0=0AI need some help with fig= uring out my cooling problems.=0A=C2=A0=0AJust so it doesn=E2=80=99t get lo= st in the following BS, I need to state that I think =0Athe problem is rela= ted to the coolant pressure.=C2=A0 It seems to me to be way too =0Ahigh.=C2= =A0 I am beginning to think that the coolant is somehow partially blocked.= =0A=C2=A0=0ANow the rest of the story=E2=80=A6.=0A=C2=A0=0AAfter I did the = flight described in the attached email, I installed an opening =0Ain the bo= ttom of the cowl that would work something like a cowl flap that is =0Aperm= anently open.=C2=A0 The new opening is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq in..= =C2=A0 There =0Ais a flare in front of the opening that is at an angle of 4= 5 degrees and extends =0Adown into the airstream about 4 inches.=C2=A0 (it = is 6 inches long.)=C2=A0 This opening is =0Ain addition to two 6 X 6 openin= gs, one of which has a 3 inch diameter exhaust =0Apipe in it.=0A=C2=A0=0ATh= is helped a little, but nothing like I expected it would.=C2=A0 The pressur= e inside =0Athe radiator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 inches = of water.=C2=A0 (by =0Athe way, Steve was right about it being inches of wa= ter and not inches of Hg.)=0AThe pressure after the radiator and inside the= cowl dropped to 8 inches as =0Awell.=C2=A0 The temperature of the water dr= opped to 208 and the oil a couple of =0Adegrees.=C2=A0 Neither of these had= the result that I expected.=0A=C2=A0=0AMy water pressure cap is rated at 2= 1 lbs.=C2=A0 I have not calibrated the sender that =0Acame with my EM-2 and= it shows 3 lbs when the engine is cold.=C2=A0 I assume that =0Athis is zer= o.=C2=A0 When in flight the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays there.=C2= =A0 I =0Aassume that at this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding of= f air.=C2=A0 There =0Ais about a pint to a quart of air above the coolant i= n the bleed tank.=0A=C2=A0=0AThis morning I ran the engine on the ground fo= r about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of =0A3000 to 3200.=C2=A0 The OAT was 75 de= grees.=0A=C2=A0=0AI read the temps and pressures every minute or two during= the run.=C2=A0 I hope this =0Adoesn=E2=80=99t get jumbled during transmiss= ion. =0A=0A=C2=A0=0AOil temp =E2=80=93 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A080 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0103=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 130=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A139=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 144=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 155=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 162= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 165=0AAir temp after coole= r - =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A097=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A109=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 122=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 129=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 133=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 134=0A=C2=A0=0AWate= r temp -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 86=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= 126=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 161=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 173=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A178=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 190=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 198=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 199=0AAir temp after rad -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= 109=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A133=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 157=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 169=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 179=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 183=0A=C2=A0=0AWater pressure -= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 11=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 17=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A020=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 21=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 24=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A=0A=C2=A0=0AI noticed that the water pressur= e could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by =0Achanging the rpm while the eng= ine was still relatively cool=0A=C2=A0=0AWhat should I expect for water pre= ssure at lower temps and how could I go about =0Amaking a determination tha= t the water passages are clear?=0A=C2=A0=0AI am beginning to think that a r= ag has been left either in the engine or the =0Aradiator.=C2=A0 I have neve= r torn the engine down and I sent the radiator out to have =0Aa leak repair= a couple of years ago.=C2=A0 It is a double pass radiator.=C2=A0 I can loo= k =0Ainto the end that has both sides connected thru the radiator cap neck,= but not =0Ainto the inlet and outlet end. =0A=0A=C2=A0=0ASuggestions???=0A= =C2=A0=0AThanks,=0A=C2=A0=0ABill B=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A__________________________= ______=0A=0AFrom:Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net] =0ASent: = Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:29 PM=0ATo: ' Rotary motors in aircraft '=0ASubjec= t: On the subject of installations...=0A=C2=A0=0AMy water temp has been run= ning between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT.=C2=A0 The =0Aoil is pretty = steady at around 175.=C2=A0 Today I finally got to fly with pressure =0Apro= bes inside the cowling.=C2=A0 I was all set to try and enlarge the inlet to= the =0Aradiator to solve the problem.=C2=A0 It turns out that =E2=80=9Cin= =E2=80=9D is not the problem, it is =0A=E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D that is the pr= oblem!=0A=C2=A0=0AI have 10 inches of Hg pressure in the radiator inlet and= 10 inches of Hg on the =0Aoutlet side as well as the same pressure everywh= ere I measured inside the cowl.=C2=A0 =0AI need to open up the cowl some so= more air can get out.=C2=A0 I had considered a =0Acowl flap but that would= not work in this instance because the problem is at =0Acruise.=C2=A0 I nee= d a permanent opening.=C2=A0 I am considering louvers and I am looking =0Af= or a source.=C2=A0 I know some of you are using them.=C2=A0 Where did you g= et them and =0Ahow are they installed so that they look ok?=0A=C2=A0=0AI am= also considering some kind of flare around the exit area to create a low = =0Apressure area to help suck air out.=C2=A0 Do any of you have those and d= o they seem =0Ato work?=0A=C2=A0=0AWhile I look into this, I also need to d= o something about my muffler=E2=80=A6Thank you, =0ABobby!=0A=C2=A0=0AI wond= er about that spiral muffler some of you are trying??=0A=C2=A0=0ABill B=C2= =A0 9 hours and counting=E2=80=A6=0A=C2=A0=0ABy the way, I was considering = putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard =0Aacross the bottom of the o= il cooler to partially block it in the hopes that more =0Aair would then fl= ow through the radiator.=C2=A0 Sort of like truckers do with the =0Aradiato= r in cold weather.=C2=A0 What opinions do you have about that idea?=C2=A0 I= realize =0Ait would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I thin= k the oil might =0Anot get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked.=C2=A0 = What do you think??? --0-122252611-1301002569=:28983 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Bill,
=0A
 Have you checked for compr= ession leak into water jacket ??.............Hopefully that is not it = !!...............
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oi= l Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bells= outh.net>
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 4:30:31 PM
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the= subject of installations...Coolant Pressure

=0A=0A=0A
=0ALynn,

=0A

 

=0A

You have hit my quandary squarely on the head.&n= bsp; Assuming that the pressure was zero at room temp and rose to say 6-7 p= ounds at 200 degrees, and assume that the flow restriction in the system ca= used a pressure rise of about 2 pounds at 2000 rpm and a pressure rise of, = say, 6-7 pounds at 6000 rpm.  Under that scenario, you would have a pr= essure that ran at between 7-9 pounds at 2000 and rose to 12-14 pounds at 6= 000.  Those pressures would be easily contained with the stock cap of = 14 pounds.  And the pressure would be constantly changing with rpm and= possibly temp of the system as you were under power or not.<= /P>=0A

 

=0A

I have a 21 p= ound cap.  My system climbs smartly to the top and stays there.  = No fluctuation with rpm, no real fluctuation at temp because it has already= hit the 21 pounds before the engine is actually hot.  (around 190)

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S= omething is wrong and I don=E2=80=99t understand what it is.<= /P>=0A

 

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Bobby<= /FONT>

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I am g= oing to insert answers to your questions in your msg below.=0A

 

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Bill B<= /FONT>

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From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes
Sent:<= /B> Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations= ...Coolant Pressure

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Bill,

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&nbs= p;

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= This is all I can think of at the moment.

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Are you running a thermostat or= did you plug the hole between the inlets and outlets of the water pump?

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&nbs= p;

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No= thermostat.  The Renesis has a thermostat tower which is too tall to = fit under my cowl, so I removed it and fabricated a flat plate with two 1.2= 5 aluminum tubes for the inlet and outlet of the water pump.  That hol= e you are referencing exists in the tower, but not in my plate.

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 <= /FONT>

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= If plugged= did you drill a small hole in the plug to allow air a place to escape? I u= sed a #30 drill.

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Any air in my system would have to be carried to the high= est point, (radiator cap) then be forced by pressure to the bottom of the s= wirl tank where it would be trapped.  This seems to be working because= I have found that after I open the system for some reason, the level in th= e swirl tank will go down and there is never any air at the top of the radi= ator.

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After an engine run is the radiator the same temperature at the inl= et / outlet / bottom and top? If I have trapped air only part of my radiato= r gets hot to the touch. Dual pass barrier leaking?

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Seems to be.  I h= ave mistakenly laid my arm on the top of the radiator after a run=E2=80=A6u= sually I manage to get off pretty fast!  :>)  I can not see in= to the radiator tank on the barrier side.  It is possible it could be = leaking.  I suppose if there was a rag in the thing it could be trappe= d here also.  I have no way to see in there even if the hose was remov= ed.  I would need some kind of flexible camera or something like that.=

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&= nbsp;

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Use an extra CHT channel and clamp it to the inlet of your radiator to m= easure Delta T.

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Good idea.  I will have to rig one up.  I don=E2= =80=99t have an extra now.

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My water pressure does not vary that much in op= eration. But it does hold a little pressure for a few days after shutdown. =  1-2 psi.

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What is your pressure during operation?  What is the pr= essure cap rating?  Does it vary at all with temp and/or rpm?  Mi= ne is maxed out..always!

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What size hoses? I=E2=80=99m running 1in. =

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The RX-= 8 uses 1.25 hoses.  I stuck with that size as well.

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Where are you me= asuring water pressure?  

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The hose that comes off the top of the rear i= ron goes to the top of the radiator, just below the cap. A tee in this line= has the water pressure sender in it.  The radiator cap is just a cap,= not a pressure cap.  The outlet in the radiator neck goes to the bott= om of the swirl tank.

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Is your pressure cap on the bleed / swirl tank?

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 =

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Ye= s.

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Any pictures of the plumbing?

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Not of the current setup.=0A

 

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Bobby

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From:<= /SPAN> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net] On Behalf Of B= ill Bradburry
Sent: Thur= sday, March 24, 2011 10:23 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant = Pressure

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I need some help w= ith figuring out my cooling problems.

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Just so it doesn=E2=80=99t get lost = in the following BS, I need to state that I think the problem is related to= the coolant pressure.  It seems to me to be way too high.  I am = beginning to think that the coolant is somehow partially blocked.

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Now the = rest of the story=E2=80=A6.

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After I did the flight described in the attach= ed email, I installed an opening in the bottom of the cowl that would work = something like a cowl flap that is permanently open.  The new opening = is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq in..  There is a flare in front of th= e opening that is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends down into the airst= ream about 4 inches.  (it is 6 inches long.)  This opening is in = addition to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter exhaust = pipe in it.

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This helped a little, but nothing like I expected it would.&nb= sp; The pressure inside the radiator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water = to 8 inches of water.  (by the way, Steve was right about it being inc= hes of water and not inches of Hg.)

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The pressure after the radiator and inside= the cowl dropped to 8 inches as well.  The temperature of the water d= ropped to 208 and the oil a couple of degrees.  Neither of these had t= he result that I expected.

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My water pressure cap is rated at 21 lbs. = I have not calibrated the sender that came with my EM-2 and it shows 3 lbs= when the engine is cold.  I assume that this is zero.  When in f= light the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays there.  I assume that at= this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off air.  There is a= bout a pint to a quart of air above the coolant in the bleed tank.

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<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> 

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This mo= rning I ran the engine on the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of 3= 000 to 3200.  The OAT was 75 degrees.

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I read the temps and pressures = every minute or two during the run.  I hope this doesn=E2=80=99t get j= umbled during transmission.

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<= FONT color=3Dnavy size=3D2 face=3DArial>Oil temp =E2=80=93     &n= bsp;            = ;    80      103  &n= bsp;   130         &= nbsp;    139        =      144        = ;   155          162=          165

=0AAir temp after cooler - &= nbsp;           &nbs= p; 97       109    &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;  122          =   129          133 &= nbsp;       134

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Water temp -  &nb= sp;            =    86       126   &n= bsp;  161          &= nbsp;   173         =     178         = ;  190          198 =          199

=0AAir temp after rad - = ;            &n= bsp;      109      133&nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;      157      &n= bsp;    169        &= nbsp; 179           183

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&nbs= p;

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= Water pressure -          = ;   2          11&nb= sp;       17     &nb= sp;         20   &nb= sp;           21 &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp; 24     

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I noticed that the water pressure co= uld be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by changing the rpm while the engine was= still relatively cool

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What should I expect for water pressure at lower te= mps and how could I go about making a determination that the water passages= are clear?

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I am beginning to think that a rag has been left either in the= engine or the radiator.  I have never torn the engine down and I sent= the radiator out to have a leak repair a couple of years ago.  It is = a double pass radiator.  I can look into the end that has both sides c= onnected thru the radiator cap neck, but not into the inlet and outlet end.=

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&= nbsp;

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Suggestions???

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Thanks,

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Bill B

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From: B= ill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:29 PM
To: ' Rotary motors in aircraft '
= Subject: On the subject of = installations...

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My water temp has been running between 199 and 2= 17, depending on the OAT.  The oil is pretty steady at around 175.&nbs= p; Today I finally got to fly with pressure probes inside the cowling. = ; I was all set to try and enlarge the inlet to the radiator to solve the p= roblem.  It turns out that =E2=80=9Cin=E2=80=9D is not the problem, it= is =E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D that is the problem!

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I have 10 inches of Hg pres= sure in the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg on the outlet side as well a= s the same pressure everywhere I measured inside the cowl.  I need to = open up the cowl some so more air can get out.  I had considered a cow= l flap but that would not work in this instance because the problem is at c= ruise.  I need a permanent opening.  I am considering louvers and= I am looking for a source.  I know some of you are using them.  = Where did you get them and how are they installed so that they look ok?

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I= am also considering some kind of flare around the exit area to create a lo= w pressure area to help suck air out.  Do any of you have those and do= they seem to work?

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While I look into this, I also need to do something ab= out my muffler=E2=80=A6Thank you, Bobby!

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I wonder about that spiral muff= ler some of you are trying??

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<= FONT color=3Dnavy size=3D2 face=3DArial>Bill B  9 hours and counting=E2=80=A6

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B= y the way, I was considering putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard = across the bottom of the oil cooler to partially block it in the hopes that= more air would then flow through the radiator.  Sort of like truckers= do with the radiator in cold weather.  What opinions do you have abou= t that idea?  I realize it would make more sense if the oil was really= cool, but I think the oil might not get much hotter if an inch or so was b= locked.  What do you think???

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