X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost03.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2) with ESMTP id 4920943 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:31:02 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.103; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-85-145-79.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.145.79]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc03) with SMTP id <20110324213024H0300otbaae>; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:30:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.145.79] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:30:31 -0400 Message-ID: <30762C0E8E364BD2B8DE95BF28DF4D00@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01CBEA49.2D3C4D70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcvqQ+LcrcY2rYQAT6upOEisEaX06wAIjYMw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01CBEA49.2D3C4D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lynn, You have hit my quandary squarely on the head. Assuming that the pressure was zero at room temp and rose to say 6-7 pounds at 200 degrees, and assume that the flow restriction in the system caused a pressure rise of about 2 pounds at 2000 rpm and a pressure rise of, say, 6-7 pounds at 6000 rpm. Under that scenario, you would have a pressure that ran at between 7-9 pounds at 2000 and rose to 12-14 pounds at 6000. Those pressures would be easily contained with the stock cap of 14 pounds. And the pressure would be constantly changing with rpm and possibly temp of the system as you were under power or not. I have a 21 pound cap. My system climbs smartly to the top and stays there. No fluctuation with rpm, no real fluctuation at temp because it has already hit the 21 pounds before the engine is actually hot. (around 190) Something is wrong and I don't understand what it is. Bobby I am going to insert answers to your questions in your msg below. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:57 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure Bill, This is all I can think of at the moment. Are you running a thermostat or did you plug the hole between the inlets and outlets of the water pump? No thermostat. The Renesis has a thermostat tower which is too tall to fit under my cowl, so I removed it and fabricated a flat plate with two 1.25 aluminum tubes for the inlet and outlet of the water pump. That hole you are referencing exists in the tower, but not in my plate. If plugged did you drill a small hole in the plug to allow air a place to escape? I used a #30 drill. Any air in my system would have to be carried to the highest point, (radiator cap) then be forced by pressure to the bottom of the swirl tank where it would be trapped. This seems to be working because I have found that after I open the system for some reason, the level in the swirl tank will go down and there is never any air at the top of the radiator. After an engine run is the radiator the same temperature at the inlet / outlet / bottom and top? If I have trapped air only part of my radiator gets hot to the touch. Dual pass barrier leaking? Seems to be. I have mistakenly laid my arm on the top of the radiator after a run.usually I manage to get off pretty fast! :>) I can not see into the radiator tank on the barrier side. It is possible it could be leaking. I suppose if there was a rag in the thing it could be trapped here also. I have no way to see in there even if the hose was removed. I would need some kind of flexible camera or something like that. Use an extra CHT channel and clamp it to the inlet of your radiator to measure Delta T. Good idea. I will have to rig one up. I don't have an extra now. My water pressure does not vary that much in operation. But it does hold a little pressure for a few days after shutdown. 1-2 psi. What is your pressure during operation? What is the pressure cap rating? Does it vary at all with temp and/or rpm? Mine is maxed out..always! What size hoses? I'm running 1in. The RX-8 uses 1.25 hoses. I stuck with that size as well. Where are you measuring water pressure? The hose that comes off the top of the rear iron goes to the top of the radiator, just below the cap. A tee in this line has the water pressure sender in it. The radiator cap is just a cap, not a pressure cap. The outlet in the radiator neck goes to the bottom of the swirl tank. Is your pressure cap on the bleed / swirl tank? Yes. Any pictures of the plumbing? Not of the current setup. Bobby _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:23 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure I need some help with figuring out my cooling problems. Just so it doesn't get lost in the following BS, I need to state that I think the problem is related to the coolant pressure. It seems to me to be way too high. I am beginning to think that the coolant is somehow partially blocked. Now the rest of the story.. After I did the flight described in the attached email, I installed an opening in the bottom of the cowl that would work something like a cowl flap that is permanently open. The new opening is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq in.. There is a flare in front of the opening that is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends down into the airstream about 4 inches. (it is 6 inches long.) This opening is in addition to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter exhaust pipe in it. This helped a little, but nothing like I expected it would. The pressure inside the radiator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 inches of water. (by the way, Steve was right about it being inches of water and not inches of Hg.) The pressure after the radiator and inside the cowl dropped to 8 inches as well. The temperature of the water dropped to 208 and the oil a couple of degrees. Neither of these had the result that I expected. My water pressure cap is rated at 21 lbs. I have not calibrated the sender that came with my EM-2 and it shows 3 lbs when the engine is cold. I assume that this is zero. When in flight the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays there. I assume that at this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off air. There is about a pint to a quart of air above the coolant in the bleed tank. This morning I ran the engine on the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of 3000 to 3200. The OAT was 75 degrees. I read the temps and pressures every minute or two during the run. I hope this doesn't get jumbled during transmission. Oil temp - 80 103 130 139 144 155 162 165 Air temp after cooler - 97 109 122 129 133 134 Water temp - 86 126 161 173 178 190 198 199 Air temp after rad - 109 133 157 169 179 183 Water pressure - 2 11 17 20 21 24 I noticed that the water pressure could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by changing the rpm while the engine was still relatively cool What should I expect for water pressure at lower temps and how could I go about making a determination that the water passages are clear? I am beginning to think that a rag has been left either in the engine or the radiator. I have never torn the engine down and I sent the radiator out to have a leak repair a couple of years ago. It is a double pass radiator. I can look into the end that has both sides connected thru the radiator cap neck, but not into the inlet and outlet end. Suggestions??? Thanks, Bill B _____ From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:29 PM To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' Subject: On the subject of installations... My water temp has been running between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT. The oil is pretty steady at around 175. Today I finally got to fly with pressure probes inside the cowling. I was all set to try and enlarge the inlet to the radiator to solve the problem. It turns out that "in" is not the problem, it is "out" that is the problem! I have 10 inches of Hg pressure in the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg on the outlet side as well as the same pressure everywhere I measured inside the cowl. I need to open up the cowl some so more air can get out. I had considered a cowl flap but that would not work in this instance because the problem is at cruise. I need a permanent opening. I am considering louvers and I am looking for a source. I know some of you are using them. Where did you get them and how are they installed so that they look ok? I am also considering some kind of flare around the exit area to create a low pressure area to help suck air out. Do any of you have those and do they seem to work? While I look into this, I also need to do something about my muffler.Thank you, Bobby! I wonder about that spiral muffler some of you are trying?? Bill B 9 hours and counting. By the way, I was considering putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard across the bottom of the oil cooler to partially block it in the hopes that more air would then flow through the radiator. Sort of like truckers do with the radiator in cold weather. What opinions do you have about that idea? I realize it would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I think the oil might not get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked. What do you think??? ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01CBEA49.2D3C4D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lynn,

 

You have hit my quandary squarely = on the head.  Assuming that the pressure was zero at room temp and rose to = say 6-7 pounds at 200 degrees, and assume that the flow restriction in the = system caused a pressure rise of about 2 pounds at 2000 rpm and a pressure rise = of, say, 6-7 pounds at 6000 rpm.  Under that scenario, you would have a pressure that ran at between 7-9 pounds at 2000 and rose to 12-14 pounds = at 6000.  Those pressures would be easily contained with the stock cap = of 14 pounds.  And the pressure would be constantly changing with rpm and possibly temp of the system as you were under power or = not.

 

I have a 21 pound cap.  My = system climbs smartly to the top and stays there.  No fluctuation with = rpm, no real fluctuation at temp because it has already hit the 21 pounds before = the engine is actually hot.  (around 190)

 

Something is wrong and I = don’t understand what it is.

 

Bobby

 

I am going to insert answers to = your questions in your msg below.

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes
Sent: Thursday, March 24, = 2011 1:57 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure

 

Bill,

 

This is all I can think of at the = moment.

 

Are you running a thermostat or did = you plug the hole between the inlets and outlets of the water pump? =

 

No thermostat.  The Renesis has = a thermostat tower which is too tall to fit under my cowl, so I removed it = and fabricated a flat plate with two 1.25 aluminum tubes for the inlet and = outlet of the water pump.  That hole you are referencing exists in the = tower, but not in my plate.

 

If plugged did you drill a small = hole in the plug to allow air a place to escape? I used a #30 drill. =

 

Any air in my system would have to = be carried to the highest point, (radiator cap) then be forced by pressure = to the bottom of the swirl tank where it would be trapped.  This seems to = be working because I have found that after I open the system for some = reason, the level in the swirl tank will go down and there is never any air at the = top of the radiator.

 

After an engine run is the radiator = the same temperature at the inlet / outlet / bottom and top? If I have = trapped air only part of my radiator gets hot to the touch. Dual pass barrier = leaking?

 

Seems to be.  I have mistakenly = laid my arm on the top of the radiator after a run…usually I manage to = get off pretty fast!  :>)  I can not see into the radiator tank on = the barrier side.  It is possible it could be leaking.  I suppose if there = was a rag in the thing it could be trapped here also.  I have no way to = see in there even if the hose was removed.  I would need some kind of = flexible camera or something like that.

 

Use an extra CHT channel and clamp = it to the inlet of your radiator to measure Delta = T.

 

Good idea.  I will have to rig = one up.  I don’t have an extra now.

 

My water pressure does not vary = that much in operation. But it does hold a little pressure for a few days after = shutdown.  1-2 psi.

 

What is your pressure during operation?  What is the pressure cap rating?  Does it vary at = all with temp and/or rpm?  Mine is maxed = out..always!

 

What size hoses? I’m running = 1in.

 

The RX-8 uses 1.25 hoses.  I = stuck with that size as well.

 

Where are you measuring water = pressure?  

 

The hose that comes off the top of = the rear iron goes to the top of the radiator, just below the cap. A tee in this = line has the water pressure sender in it.  The radiator cap is just a = cap, not a pressure cap.  The outlet in the radiator neck goes to the bottom = of the swirl tank.

 

Is your pressure cap on the bleed / = swirl tank?

 

Yes.

 

Any pictures of the = plumbing?

 

Not of the current = setup.

 

Bobby

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Thursday, March 24, = 2011 10:23 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] On = the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure

 

I need some help with figuring out = my cooling problems.

 

Just so it doesn’t get lost = in the following BS, I need to state that I think the problem is related to the coolant pressure.  It seems to me to be way too high.  I am = beginning to think that the coolant is somehow partially = blocked.

 

Now the rest of the = story….

 

After I did the flight described in = the attached email, I installed an opening in the bottom of the cowl that would work something like a cowl flap that is permanently open.  The new = opening is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq in..  There is a flare in front of the = opening that is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends down into the airstream = about 4 inches.  (it is 6 inches long.)  This opening is in addition = to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter exhaust pipe in = it.

 

This helped a little, but nothing = like I expected it would.  The pressure inside the radiator inlet dropped = from 10 inches of water to 8 inches of water.  (by the way, Steve was right = about it being inches of water and not inches of = Hg.)

The pressure after the radiator and = inside the cowl dropped to 8 inches as well.  The temperature of the water dropped to 208 and the oil a couple of degrees.  Neither of these = had the result that I expected.

 

My water pressure cap is rated at = 21 lbs.  I have not calibrated the sender that came with my EM-2 and = it shows 3 lbs when the engine is cold.  I assume that this is zero.  = When in flight the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays there.  I assume = that at this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off air.  There is = about a pint to a quart of air above the coolant in the bleed = tank.

 

This morning I ran the engine on = the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of 3000 to 3200.  The OAT = was 75 degrees.

 

I read the temps and pressures = every minute or two during the run.  I hope this doesn’t get = jumbled during transmission.

 

Oil temp –             &= nbsp;        80      103      130           &nbs= p;  139           &nbs= p; 144           155          = 162         165

Air temp after cooler -             &= nbsp; 97       109           &nbs= p;            = ;        122            129          133         = 134

 

Water temp -            =       86       126      161           &nbs= p;  173           &nbs= p; 178           190          198          = 199

Air temp after rad -            =         109      133           &nbs= p;            = ;        157           169          = 179           183

 

Water pressure -            = 2          11        17        =        20     = ;          21            = ;            =     24     

 

I noticed that the water pressure = could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by changing the rpm while the engine was = still relatively cool

 

What should I expect for water = pressure at lower temps and how could I go about making a determination that the = water passages are clear?

 

I am beginning to think that a rag = has been left either in the engine or the radiator.  I have never torn = the engine down and I sent the radiator out to have a leak repair a couple = of years ago.  It is a double pass radiator.  I can look into the end = that has both sides connected thru the radiator cap neck, but not into the inlet = and outlet end.

 

Suggestions???

 

Thanks,

=

 

Bill B

 

From: Bill = Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, = 2011 5:29 PM
To: 'Rotary motors in = aircraft'
Subject: On the subject = of installations...

 

My water temp has been running = between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT.  The oil is pretty steady at around 175.  Today I finally got to fly with pressure probes inside the cowling.  I was all set to try and enlarge the inlet to the = radiator to solve the problem.  It turns out that “in” is not the = problem, it is “out” that is the = problem!

 

I have 10 inches of Hg pressure in = the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg on the outlet side as well as the = same pressure everywhere I measured inside the cowl.  I need to open up = the cowl some so more air can get out.  I had considered a cowl flap = but that would not work in this instance because the problem is at cruise.  = I need a permanent opening.  I am considering louvers and I am looking for = a source.  I know some of you are using them.  Where did you get = them and how are they installed so that they look = ok?

 

I am also considering some kind of = flare around the exit area to create a low pressure area to help suck air = out.  Do any of you have those and do they seem to = work?

 

While I look into this, I also need = to do something about my muffler…Thank you, = Bobby!

 

I wonder about that spiral muffler = some of you are trying??

 

Bill B  9 hours and = counting…

 

By the way, I was considering = putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard across the bottom of the oil cooler to partially block it in the hopes that more air would then flow through = the radiator.  Sort of like truckers do with the radiator in cold weather.  What opinions do you have about that idea?  I = realize it would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I think the oil = might not get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked.  What do you = think???

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