X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2) with ESMTP id 4920907 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:12:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.40; envelope-from=wschertz@comcast.net Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id P6pe1g0091ZMdJ4A49Bu2l; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:11:54 +0000 Received: from WschertzPC ([71.57.77.95]) by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id P9Br1g01823NHuF8c9BsUZ; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:11:53 +0000 Message-ID: <74B689291FA5499698D51EFFD884D1E8@WschertzPC> From: "Bill Schertz" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:11:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01CBEA3E.2F211400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3502.922 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3502.922 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CBEA3E.2F211400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A question =E2=80=93 Where are you measuring the water pressure?=20 If the pressure is measured at the outlet of the water pump, between the = water pump and the radiator core, you will be measuring the static = pressure of the coolant, and the dynamic pressure due to pressure drop = through the radiator. This pressure will go up and down with rpm. If measuring on the inlet side of the pump, it should be relatively rpm = independent, but rise with temperature as the engine warms up. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase one testing Completed From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:22 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of installations...Coolant Pressure I need some help with figuring out my cooling problems. =20 Just so it doesn=E2=80=99t get lost in the following BS, I need to state = that I think the problem is related to the coolant pressure. It seems = to me to be way too high. I am beginning to think that the coolant is = somehow partially blocked. =20 Now the rest of the story=E2=80=A6. =20 After I did the flight described in the attached email, I installed an = opening in the bottom of the cowl that would work something like a cowl = flap that is permanently open. The new opening is 9 inches by 5 inches = or 54 sq in.. There is a flare in front of the opening that is at an = angle of 45 degrees and extends down into the airstream about 4 inches. = (it is 6 inches long.) This opening is in addition to two 6 X 6 = openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter exhaust pipe in it. =20 This helped a little, but nothing like I expected it would. The = pressure inside the radiator inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 = inches of water. (by the way, Steve was right about it being inches of = water and not inches of Hg.) The pressure after the radiator and inside the cowl dropped to 8 inches = as well. The temperature of the water dropped to 208 and the oil a = couple of degrees. Neither of these had the result that I expected. =20 My water pressure cap is rated at 21 lbs. I have not calibrated the = sender that came with my EM-2 and it shows 3 lbs when the engine is = cold. I assume that this is zero. When in flight the pressure climbs = to 24 lbs and stays there. I assume that at this point, the cap is at = 21 lbs and is bleeding off air. There is about a pint to a quart of air = above the coolant in the bleed tank. =20 This morning I ran the engine on the ground for about 10-15 minutes at = an rpm of 3000 to 3200. The OAT was 75 degrees. =20 I read the temps and pressures every minute or two during the run. I = hope this doesn=E2=80=99t get jumbled during transmission.=20 =20 Oil temp =E2=80=93 80 103 130 = 139 144 155 162 165 Air temp after cooler - 97 109 = 122 129 133 134 =20 Water temp - 86 126 161 173 = 178 190 198 199 Air temp after rad - 109 133 = 157 169 179 183 =20 Water pressure - 2 11 17 20 = 21 24 =20 =20 I noticed that the water pressure could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs = by changing the rpm while the engine was still relatively cool =20 What should I expect for water pressure at lower temps and how could I = go about making a determination that the water passages are clear? =20 I am beginning to think that a rag has been left either in the engine or = the radiator. I have never torn the engine down and I sent the radiator = out to have a leak repair a couple of years ago. It is a double pass = radiator. I can look into the end that has both sides connected thru = the radiator cap neck, but not into the inlet and outlet end.=20 =20 Suggestions??? =20 Thanks, =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]=20 Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:29 PM To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' Subject: On the subject of installations... =20 My water temp has been running between 199 and 217, depending on the = OAT. The oil is pretty steady at around 175. Today I finally got to = fly with pressure probes inside the cowling. I was all set to try and = enlarge the inlet to the radiator to solve the problem. It turns out = that =E2=80=9Cin=E2=80=9D is not the problem, it is = =E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D that is the problem! =20 I have 10 inches of Hg pressure in the radiator inlet and 10 inches of = Hg on the outlet side as well as the same pressure everywhere I measured = inside the cowl. I need to open up the cowl some so more air can get = out. I had considered a cowl flap but that would not work in this = instance because the problem is at cruise. I need a permanent opening. = I am considering louvers and I am looking for a source. I know some of = you are using them. Where did you get them and how are they installed = so that they look ok? =20 I am also considering some kind of flare around the exit area to create = a low pressure area to help suck air out. Do any of you have those and = do they seem to work? =20 While I look into this, I also need to do something about my = muffler=E2=80=A6Thank you, Bobby! =20 I wonder about that spiral muffler some of you are trying?? =20 Bill B 9 hours and counting=E2=80=A6 =20 By the way, I was considering putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of = cardboard across the bottom of the oil cooler to partially block it in = the hopes that more air would then flow through the radiator. Sort of = like truckers do with the radiator in cold weather. What opinions do = you have about that idea? I realize it would make more sense if the oil = was really cool, but I think the oil might not get much hotter if an = inch or so was blocked. What do you think??? ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CBEA3E.2F211400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A  question =E2=80=93 Where are you measuring the water = pressure?
 
If the pressure is measured at the outlet of the water pump, = between the=20 water pump and the radiator core, you will be measuring the static = pressure of=20 the coolant, and the dynamic pressure due to pressure drop through the=20 radiator.  This pressure will go up and down with rpm.
 
If measuring on the inlet side of the pump, it should be relatively = rpm=20 independent, but rise with temperature as the engine warms up.
 
Bill=20 Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase one testing = Completed
 
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 11:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] On the subject of = installations...Coolant=20 Pressure
 

I need some = help with=20 figuring out my cooling problems.

 

Just so it = doesn=E2=80=99t get=20 lost in the following BS, I need to state that I think the problem is = related to=20 the coolant pressure.  It seems to me to be way too high.  I = am=20 beginning to think that the coolant is somehow partially=20 blocked.

 

Now the rest = of the=20 story=E2=80=A6.

 

After I did = the flight=20 described in the attached email, I installed an opening in the bottom of = the=20 cowl that would work something like a cowl flap that is permanently = open. =20 The new opening is 9 inches by 5 inches or 54 sq in..  There is a = flare in=20 front of the opening that is at an angle of 45 degrees and extends down = into the=20 airstream about 4 inches.  (it is 6 inches long.)  This = opening is in=20 addition to two 6 X 6 openings, one of which has a 3 inch diameter = exhaust pipe=20 in it.

 

This helped a = little,=20 but nothing like I expected it would.  The pressure inside the = radiator=20 inlet dropped from 10 inches of water to 8 inches of water.  (by = the way,=20 Steve was right about it being inches of water and not inches of=20 Hg.)

The pressure = after the=20 radiator and inside the cowl dropped to 8 inches as well.  The = temperature=20 of the water dropped to 208 and the oil a couple of degrees.  = Neither of=20 these had the result that I expected.

 

My water = pressure cap=20 is rated at 21 lbs.  I have not calibrated the sender that came = with my=20 EM-2 and it shows 3 lbs when the engine is cold.  I assume that = this is=20 zero.  When in flight the pressure climbs to 24 lbs and stays = there. =20 I assume that at this point, the cap is at 21 lbs and is bleeding off = air. =20 There is about a pint to a quart of air above the coolant in the bleed=20 tank.

 

This morning = I ran the=20 engine on the ground for about 10-15 minutes at an rpm of 3000 to = 3200. =20 The OAT was 75 degrees.

 

I read the = temps and=20 pressures every minute or two during the run.  I hope this = doesn=E2=80=99t get=20 jumbled during transmission.

 

Oil temp=20 =E2=80=93          &nbs= p;          =20 80      103     =20 130           &nbs= p; =20 139           &nbs= p;=20 144          =20 155         =20 162        =20 165

Air temp = after cooler=20 -            =   =20 97      =20 109           &nbs= p;            = ;       =20 122           =20 129         =20 133        =20 134

 

Water temp=20 -            =      =20 86       126      = 161           &nbs= p; =20 173           &nbs= p;=20 178          =20 190         =20 198         =20 199

Air temp = after rad=20 -            =        =20 109     =20 133           &nbs= p;            = ;       =20 157          =20 169         =20 179          =20 183

 

Water = pressure=20 -            = =20 2         =20 11       =20 17            = ;  =20 20            = ;  =20 21            = ;            =    =20 24     

 

I noticed = that the=20 water pressure could be brought from 2 lbs to 9 lbs by changing the rpm = while=20 the engine was still relatively cool

 

What should I = expect=20 for water pressure at lower temps and how could I go about making a=20 determination that the water passages are = clear?

 

I am = beginning to think=20 that a rag has been left either in the engine or the radiator.  I = have=20 never torn the engine down and I sent the radiator out to have a leak = repair a=20 couple of years ago.  It is a double pass radiator.  I can = look into=20 the end that has both sides connected thru the radiator cap neck, but = not into=20 the inlet and outlet end.

 

Suggestions???

 

Thanks,

 

Bill=20 B

 

From: Bill=20 Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:29 = PM
To: = 'Rotary motors in aircraft'
Subject: On the subject of=20 installations...

 

My water temp = has been=20 running between 199 and 217, depending on the OAT.  The oil is = pretty=20 steady at around 175.  Today I finally got to fly with pressure = probes=20 inside the cowling.  I was all set to try and enlarge the inlet to = the=20 radiator to solve the problem.  It turns out that = =E2=80=9Cin=E2=80=9D is not the problem,=20 it is =E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D that is the = problem!

 

I have 10 = inches of Hg=20 pressure in the radiator inlet and 10 inches of Hg on the outlet side as = well as=20 the same pressure everywhere I measured inside the cowl.  I need to = open up=20 the cowl some so more air can get out.  I had considered a cowl = flap but=20 that would not work in this instance because the problem is at = cruise.  I=20 need a permanent opening.  I am considering louvers and I am = looking for a=20 source.  I know some of you are using them.  Where did you get = them=20 and how are they installed so that they look = ok?

 

I am also = considering=20 some kind of flare around the exit area to create a low pressure area to = help=20 suck air out.  Do any of you have those and do they seem to=20 work?

 

While I look = into this,=20 I also need to do something about my muffler=E2=80=A6Thank you,=20 Bobby!

 

I wonder = about that=20 spiral muffler some of you are trying??

 

Bill B  = 9 hours=20 and counting=E2=80=A6

 

By the way, I = was=20 considering putting a 1 or 2 inch wide piece of cardboard across the = bottom of=20 the oil cooler to partially block it in the hopes that more air would = then flow=20 through the radiator.  Sort of like truckers do with the radiator = in cold=20 weather.  What opinions do you have about that idea?  I = realize it=20 would make more sense if the oil was really cool, but I think the oil = might not=20 get much hotter if an inch or so was blocked.  What do you=20 think???

=
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