X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2) with ESMTPS id 4912891 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:36:06 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.50; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by wwc33 with SMTP id 33so5133694wwc.7 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2011 16:35:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=qpiQFJ4K1PaPcHy6DPssB/I3S8T7nv7L1m6t6qokrN0=; b=gQiLV2S1PYzJGwaDZp9Ans91TRdO5TypxsPL02t8n8NKm3xfhri2qYGTeBlXlqRSeX CZrEDGB1u6m+OxjHY6VNNSjw7nv7xWlSuvWCgG/2uFNPUlhl0l36utNXoK3duCdzbvXZ +QPD4gqECR544IaDfPTVdzsU/hacw55i8eMPQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=GllZ+Ms8SrnNbaKipP4b3ZlPNl4PtJiPUKf3ZFNosFJwZXsj7iU1GUyBJdsj1+0oWN NN01HiSiNatXDphs8sU2aS18quDmCYo7Pk4ujWXoIqmrB6LwOdCO/7aGms8JDVDopjoq AP3SiWE+r0byqCYa9bAg5ixjsDgU9bsA4GqhQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.177.143 with SMTP id bi15mr1483730wbb.96.1300664129954; Sun, 20 Mar 2011 16:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.141.197 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Mar 2011 16:35:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:35:29 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing. From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba47636f7027c6049ef277ad --90e6ba47636f7027c6049ef277ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree completely, especially about the EGT. Don't use off the shelf mufflers, designed for piston engine applications. Call Racing Beat or one of the other rotary tuners and buy one of their mufflers specifically intended for rotary racing applications. You don't need inconel, but you can't just grab any old muffler, even a stainless one= , and expect it to not fall apart. I really recommend anyone using a rotary engine in an aircraft to join the RX-7 forums and see what they are doing. There are some things you can do in a car that you can't get away with in an aircraft, but if they can't get away with it in their car, don't think it will hold up in a plane. Same thing goes for cooling systems. Aircraft builders may have unique adventures in ductwork, but most of the rest of the problems have been deal= t with and solved by the car guys. There are a lot more of them, and they've been at it longer. On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Al Gietzen wrote: > Bobby; > > > > Very capable handling of an emergency. We are thankful for that. > > > > A couple of comments. It seems to me your EGT readings are suspiciously > low. I run NA 9.0:1 rotors in my 20B, and the peak EGTs are up around > 1675F. At rich climb they are maybe 50 less; and I lean to just under 16= 00 > for lean cruise. I=92m measuring about 2=94 form the port. So maybe you= r > muffler is seeing higher temps than you think. > > > > We=92ve heard of a number of muffler failures on this list. It troubles m= e > that some of you are taking the risk of flying an off-the-shelf muffler; = the > internal failure of which can cause blocking of the exhaust flow. It seem= s > to be a known risk of an off-airport landing. There are options. Yeah; = a > custom inconel muffler (or some heavy walled 321) will set you back some > bucks; but . . . > > > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Bobby J. Hughes > *Sent:* Sunday, March 20, 2011 3:03 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing. > > > > It=92s supercharged. My EGT=92s never get over 1540F. Most of the time th= ey run > in the 1400=92s. I am also not 100% convinced the muffler was to blame. B= ut it > seems to fit the symptoms. I can=92t confirm the muffler was blocked afte= r > landing while trying to taxi. One theory is the exhaust pressure was enou= gh > to keep all the little pieces in place until after shutdown. Then towing = the > plane shook everything loose. Wonder if I could talk Mark S. into stickin= g a > banana in the tail pipe on a full power ground run to duplicate the probl= em? > This is my second HP-2 muffler in about 100 hours of engine time. It may > have 25 hours of flight time. The first one was inside the cowl and angle= d > down and back. It lost all the mesh and cone material. The angle may have > helped some of the loose material exit the muffler. But it=92s all > speculation. > > > > Bobby > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Bryan Winberry > *Sent:* Sunday, March 20, 2011 3:25 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing. > > > > I believe he is supercharged, not turboed. > > BW > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Bill Bradburry > *Sent:* Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:11 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Forced Landing. > > > > Bobby, > > That is an excellent job of both flying and troubleshooting to discover t= he > cause of the problem. I am wondering why you have a muffler if you have = a > turbo? > > > > My Hushpower is welded in and up inside the cowl. I would not be able to > see inside if or remove or replace it with the current setup. This incid= ent > has really made me start to think about the muffler.. Thanks for the gre= at > report! > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > > --90e6ba47636f7027c6049ef277ad Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree completely, especially about the EGT.

Don't use off the = shelf mufflers, designed for piston engine applications.=A0 Call Racing Bea= t or one of the other rotary tuners and buy one of their mufflers specifica= lly intended for rotary racing applications.=A0 You don't need inconel,= but you can't just grab any old muffler, even a stainless one, and exp= ect it to not fall apart.

I really recommend anyone using a rotary engine in an aircraft to join = the RX-7 forums and see what they are doing.=A0 There are some things you c= an do in a car that you can't get away with in an aircraft, but if they= can't get away with it in their car, don't think it will hold up i= n a plane.

Same thing goes for cooling systems.=A0 Aircraft builders may have uniq= ue adventures in ductwork, but most of the rest of the problems have been d= ealt with and solved by the car guys.=A0 There are a lot more of them, and = they've been at it longer.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Al Gietzen = <ALVentures@cox.= net> wrote:

Bobby;

=A0=

Very capab= le handling of an emergency. =A0We are thankful for that.

=A0=

A couple o= f comments.=A0 It seems to me your EGT readings are suspiciously low.=A0 I run NA 9.0:1 rotors in my 20B, and the peak EGTs are up around 1675F.=A0 At rich climb they are maybe 50 less; and I lean to just under 1600 for lean cruise.=A0 I=92m measuring about 2=94 form the port.=A0 So maybe your muffler is seeing higher temps than you think.

=A0=

We=92ve he= ard of a number of muffler failures on this list. It troubles me that some of you are taking the risk = of flying an off-the-shelf muffler; the internal failure of which can cause blocking of the exhaust flow. It seems to be a known risk of an off-airport landing. =A0There are options.=A0 Yeah; a custom inconel muffler (or some heavy walled 321) will set you back some bucks; but=A0 . . . =

=A0=

Al<= /font>

=A0=

-----Origi= nal Message-----
From: Rotary motors in air= craft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 20= 11 3:03 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: F= orced Landing.

=A0

It=92s supercharged. My EGT=92s never get over 1540F. Most of the time they run in the 1400=92s. I am also not 100% convinced the muffler was to blame. But it seems to fit the symptoms. I can=92t confirm the muffler was blocked after landing while trying to taxi. One theory is the exhaust pressure was enough= to keep all the little pieces in place until after shutdown. Then towing the p= lane shook everything loose. Wonder if I could talk Mark S. into sticking a bana= na in the tail pipe on a full power ground run to duplicate the problem? This = is my second HP-2 muffler in about 100 hours of engine time. It may have 25 ho= urs of flight time. The first one was inside the cowl and angled down and back.= It lost all the mesh and cone material. The angle may have helped some of the loose material exit the muffler. But it=92s all speculation. =

=A0

Bobby

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 20= 11 3:25 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: F= orced Landing.

=A0

I believe he is supercharged, not turboed.

BW

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 20= 11 5:11 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: F= orced Landing.

=A0

Bobby,

That is an excellent job of both flying and troubleshooting to discover the cause of the problem.=A0 I am wondering why you have a muffler if you have a turbo?

=A0

My Hushpower is welded in and up inside the cowl.=A0 I would not be able to see inside if or remove o= r replace it with the current setup.=A0 This incident has really made me star= t to think about the muffler..=A0 Thanks for the great report!<= /p>

=A0

Bill B

=A0

=A0


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