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Hi Brian,
If its rotor ballance problem, the EGTs will tell you. Are they matched below staging and go big delta after?
Tracy
PS: 19.5" is what I use for staging point.
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:28 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
Tracy,
I've been out of town for a while, but refering to my last e-mail, I run really smooth up to the staging point, address 84, ~ 19.5 inches MP, but after staging, the engine does not want to be tuned to the silky smooth running like when it is running on the primaries. I think that it's now a matter of balancing the two rotors in mode 4, but you suggested that I might want to change the staging point. What are your thoughts here?
I think that this is the factory default. The point that it stages does not seem to be the issue at this point, but I think the roughness is due to one rotor running much richer, and that would probably account for the small hiccuping and popping.
Brian Trubee
-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy < tracy@rotaryaviation.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:18 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2/ Tracy
Definitely sounds like Mode 6 needs adjusting but the mixture monitor is a lot better tool for getting the balance right.
Yes, Lead & Trail plugs fire at the same time with EC2.
Tracy
On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 3:54 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
My staging point is 19.5- address 84. Down below staging, it's running really smoothly. Above staging, it's rough, and doesn't want to lean to it's sweet spot. So maybe I need to run it up at that point, check the EGTs and adjust Mode 6 if necessary. Also, I have a hard time keeping the temps up. At 30 degrees OAT, I was below 120 degrees. So that might also be a factor. I'll adjust the cooling to get it running warmer and then try the tuning.
One question- with the EC2, does the leading and trailing plug fire at the same time?
Thanks,
Brian Trubee
-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy < tracy@rotaryaviation.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 19, 2011 8:14 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2/ Tracy
That's possible. If so, up the stage point to ~ 20" if you can't make it right as it is. Early units had default of about 15 - 16" which I think is too low.
Tracy
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 7:35 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
Maybe it has something to do with how much of a load the engine is under on the ground vs. in flight. Anyway, I'm on the right track .
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy < tracy@rotaryaviation.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 2:30 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2/ Tracy
Yes, good idea to adjust Mode 6 first when using injectors of different flow rates between primary & secondary.
I don't have an explanation for why you are seeing a big difference at stage point between ground and in-flight. Never encountered that.
Tracy
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 4:54 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
Went out today to fly for about 1/2 hour, takeoff and climb was fairly normal, I had to lean it out a little with the mixture knob. I went out flying over Snohomish, Washington at about 5500 agl to do a little tuning. Past the staging point, the engine ran rough and in tuning with the mixture switch, going rich got rougher, and slowing leaning the mixture would smooth it out and then it would quit. I think I need to set mode six down a bit, since I have 28 lb primaries and 40 lb secondaries. Further tuning on the ground at the staging point and higher is definately in order. On the ground I'm getting a smooth transistion through the staging point.
On the way home, the tower asked if I was flying over Snohomish, as they had gotten a call about a plane with engine trouble flying over the town. Down below the staging point, the engine runs very smoothly.
Brian Trubee
-----Original Message-----
From: Al Gietzen < ALVentures@cox.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:11 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2/ Tracy
Bill;
I checked fuel pressure, and it was where it was supposed to be. I have a Richardson filter with mesh screens and high flow capacity. Over the years I’ve never seen more than a bit of what looked like lint/dust on the filter.
I run on both pumps for takeoff, then turn off #2 pump for flight. Nothing changes when I turn off the second pump.
Good point, though.
Al
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 6:38 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2/ Tracy
Al,
I had a similar problem when the fuel filter was getting clogged. What is your fuel pressure doing at WOT? My mixture was leaner throughout and I couldn’t get full power even with the mixture knob all the way rich. I turned on the secondary fuel pump which has its own filter, and everything went back to normal.
Bill B
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 11:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2/ Tracy
Last Sunday’s flight was a series of 20 minute hops, picking up friend, flying to brunch, dropping off, back to base. Couldn’t learn a lot about tuning; except to be disappointed.
I had in the past been quite pleased with the mixture tuning. A few flights back I replaced the O2 sensor. Two flights back I then did a re-tuning by flying a full profile from takeoff to landing in auto-tune mode, except for occasional checks of temps, etc. That’s when I found it going very rich around the bin 32 area on descent, then having to re-tune for it to run right on the ground.
I assumed all was good when heading out on Sunday. Except even with the mixture knob at 2:00 – 2:30 position it was too lean pretty much all the time – had to increase mixture knob to get toward max power. During a brief session of lean cruise, I changed the throttle a bit, and it was suddenly so lean the engine was faltering. Hm-m-m. Apparently auto-tune had not done things right on prior flight. OK; track mode on EM2, mode 9 on EC2 for auto-tune; but no joy; nothing would change. Re-set things again; auto-tune would not work.
On each of the 4 descents the EGT tripped the warning light. RPM was about 4500-4800; max EGT 1730-1760. Unfortunately, didn’t note MAP; but it was likely pretty low.
Back on the ground by the hangar, I again tried the auto-tune – it WORKED. Why not in the air?
So I have some work to do, and some questions.
Why during the auto-tune flight would the mixture be leaner than previously tuned? Could it be more resistance to ground at the O2 sensor due to more anti-seize grease? Or something else?
When in auto-tune, does program knob more clockwise cause it to set a more rich profile; or would the stochiometric then be with the mixture knob set more clockwise as well – or vice versa?
Are both mode 2 and mode 6 different than 2-3 years ago? My mode 6 is secondary injector differential adjust. Is it time for another EC2 upgrade?
I've never had the problem myself since I always plan my descents to avoid windmilling the engine at low throttle (that's not good for the RD-1x drive).
The Velocity is a very slippery airplane, so I’d have to make very shallow descents to avoid neutral or negative thrust on the prop, at least until I’m below gear-down speed. What does it do to the re-drive?
Al G
I tried to address this issue with Mode 6, the adjustable MP threshold for the lower map table range. The idea is to have the lowest in-flight MP select the 0 - 31 range and ground condition select the upper range (32 - 64). Being successful at this also requires the rpm threshold of the low range be chosen correctly and everyone's seems different so it may not be right for your installation since it is not programmable. Controllable pitch props also complicate this issue, even on carbureted engines. It's the same situation that causes P51's to fart, pop and belch fire during this phase of flight. Everybody thinks that's cool tho....
I've never had the problem myself since I always plan my descents to avoid windmilling the engine at low throttle (that's not good for the RD-1x drive). It's also a waste of the potential energy in altitude.
But, if the EGT's are the only problem during this condition, I'd ignore it because you can't damage anything in the engine at this low power setting.
Tracy
Relating to this subject heading; here is an issue that has me wondering.
I tune the EC2 MAP table at the low end – maybe up to 14-15” MAP – while on the ground; and then tune above that in flight. And frequently when on rapid descent with throttle pulled well back; the engine alarm light starts blinking. It’s because EGT is exceeding the limit (I think 1750). Seems strange. I figure must be really rich, and fuel burning at the exhaust port making high EGT.
So one day I put it in auto tune mode and pull back the throttle on descent, and I note that the mixture in bins 30-31-32 going way to the rich side; I think it was bin 32 that was full rich. No longer a high EGT alarm. Hm-m-m; must be it was really lean there, but why would that make high EGT.
Then I land; and as I pull off the runway the engine is rough and stumbling. Lean out the mixture and it works fine. So I do some auto tuning at low rpm and MAP, and find it at those low 30’s bins making it much leaner and get things running smoothly.
So what’s happening here; and is there a fix. Clearly those bins need to be tuned for low rpm and taxi operation. Why the high EGT on throttle back descent? How do I not get the engine alarm on descent, and still get to run smoothly on the ground?
Al
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 8:04 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2/ Tracy
Yes, if you decrease the Mode 3 value you will have to increase the map table values across the whole range to compensate. It's not automatic though, you will have to do it manually. Auto tune would eventually get it adjusted too but that assumes you run the engine at all possible settings for long enough for that to happen. That's why it pays to do Mode 3 first, Mode 2 second and Mode 1 (or 9) 3rd. Don't ask why I numbered the Modes in that order, I don't have a good answer other than Mode 1 was the one that would be used most often. Now Mode 9 is the most often used but Mode 9 didn't exist in the early days of the EC1/2/3.
Last thing to do is auto tune for the fine tuning.
Tracy
I didn't run out of injector setting range, but am very close. My edit page bar graph is pretty much ony one or two lines high for most of the Map table. I'm also down to values around -120 for most of the addresses. I thought about setting mode 3 a bit lower.Iif so, and I then go back and re-tune it to the aproximate fuel/air settings I have now, does it change the bar graph and the values at each address?
Say, for instance, MAP address 80 shows a setting of -118, and only one line on the bar graph. If I lower the injector setting in mode 3 and re-tune to the same mixture setting, will the setting be higher than -118 and will the bar graph be higher? It would be nicer to be closer to the middle values, rather then the bottom (-127) or top (+127), so I have more adjustability in the future if I were to need it for some reason. Even though it runs nicely now, i'm still up around 8 "o"s on the horizontal mixture graph.
turns out it was running really rich on the factory EC2 settings. I went to auto tune and the injector settings went way down, all the way up and down the map table.
Glad you got it running better Brian. When you run into the situation you mentioned above, the first thing you should do is adjust the Injector Flow Rate (Mode 3). That will adjust the mixture at ALL throttle settings and is a lot easier than resetting the entire MAP Table. But as long as you don't run out of range on the MAP Table adjustments, what you did will work OK.
Tracy
And on to brighter news. I went out today, did some tuning on my plane, turns out it was running really rich on the factory EC2 settings. I went to auto tune and the injector settings went way down, all the way up and down the map table. Had to do a little fine tuning, and especially at the staging point, had to richen it up there, at bin # 84. I would have taken it up for a flight, but had other appointments. It was a glorious day for flying, but a test will have to wait for the next nice day here in Seattle.Previous flights went OK until just after takeoff, then the engine would surge and backfire, getting the attention of all witnesses within a mile or two. I can imagine that they were all mentally formulating what they were going to say to the FAA investigation team. I was starting to question my decision to go rotary, but now have a renewed sense of confidence in the installation.
Temperature today was around 50 degrees, even with extended running on the ground at full throttle, temps maxed out at 145 and148 for oil and coolant respectively. Throttling back to 16 inches of MP got the temps running around 125. Going to wait until summer to close up my cooling inlets a little.
Sent: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:50 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Replaced Tension Bolt, Oil Seal, Thrust Bearing ... back ...
Hmm, send money overseas for their oil so that we can increase our trade deficit and fund all sorts of socially constipated cultures who might be hostile to our own, or keep the money here and employ americans? That's a real head scratcher there. I've got some of the mineral rights in the Bakken, due to some forward thinking ranch owning ancestors, so you can imagine what my feelings on this are.
New Drilling Method Opens Vast U.S. Oil Fields
Published February 10, 2011
A new drilling technique is opening up vast fields of previously out-of-reach oil in the western United States, helping reverse a two-decade decline in domestic production of crude.
Companies are investing billions of dollars to get at oil deposits scattered across North Dakota, Colorado, Texas and California. By 2015, oil executives and analysts say, the new fields could yield as much as 2 million barrels of oil a day -- more than the entire Gulf of Mexico produces now.
This new drilling is expected to raise U.S. production by at least 20 percent over the next five years. And within 10 years, it could help reduce oil imports by more than half, advancing a goal that has long eluded policymakers.
"That's a significant contribution to energy security," says Ed Morse, head of commodities research at Credit Suisse.
Oil engineers are applying what critics say is an environmentally questionable method developed in recent years to tap natural gas trapped in underground shale. They drill down and horizontally into the rock, then pump water, sand and chemicals into the hole to crack the shale and allow gas to flow up.
Because oil molecules are sticky and larger than gas molecules, engineers thought the process wouldn't work to squeeze oil out fast enough to make it economical. But drillers learned how to increase the number of cracks in the rock and use different chemicals to free up oil at low cost. "We've completely transformed the natural gas industry, and I wouldn't be surprised if we transform the oil business in the next few years too," says Aubrey McClendon, chief executive of Chesapeake Energy, which is using the technique.
Petroleum engineers first used the method in 2007 to unlock oil from a 25,000-square-mile formation under North Dakota and Montana known as the Bakken. Production there rose 50 percent in just the past year, to 458,000 barrels a day, according to Bentek Energy, an energy analysis firm.
It was first thought that the Bakken was unique. Then drillers tapped oil in a shale formation under South Texas called the Eagle Ford. Drilling permits in the region grew 11-fold last year.
Now newer fields are showing promise, including the Niobrara, which stretches under Wyoming, Colorado, Nebraska and Kansas; the Leonard, in New Mexico and Texas; and the Monterey, in California.
"It's only been fleshed out over the last 12 months just how consequential this can be," says Mark Papa, chief executive of EOG Resources, the company that first used horizontal drilling to tap shale oil. "And there will be several additional plays that will come about in the next 12 to 18 months. We're not done yet."
Environmentalists fear that fluids or wastewater from the process, called hydraulic fracturing, could pollute drinking water supplies. The Environmental Protection Agency is now studying its safety in shale drilling. The agency studied use of the process in shallower drilling operations in 2004 and found that it was safe.
In the Bakken formation, production is rising so fast there is no space in pipelines to bring the oil to market. Instead, it is being transported to refineries by rail and truck. Drilling companies have had to erect camps to house workers.
Unemployment in North Dakota has fallen to the lowest level in the nation, 3.8 percent -- less than half the national rate of 9 percent. The influx of mostly male workers to the region has left local men lamenting a lack of women. Convenience stores are struggling to keep shelves stocked with food.
The Bakken and the Eagle Ford are each expected to ultimately produce 4 billion barrels of oil. That would make them the fifth- and sixth-biggest oil fields ever discovered in the United States. The top four are Prudhoe Bay in Alaska, Spraberry Trend in West Texas, the East Texas Oilfield and the Kuparuk Field in Alaska.
The fields are attracting billions of dollars of investment from foreign oil giants like Royal Dutch Shell, BP and Norway's Statoil, and also from the smaller U.S. drillers who developed the new techniques like Chesapeake, EOG Resources and Occidental Petroleum.
Last month China's state-owned oil company CNOOC agreed to pay Chesapeake $570 million for a one-third stake in a drilling project in the Niobrara. This followed a $1 billion deal in October between the two companies on a project in the Eagle Ford.
With oil prices high and natural-gas prices low, profit margins from producing oil from shale are much higher than for gas. Also, drilling for shale oil is not dependent on high oil prices. Papa says this oil is cheaper to tap than the oil in the deep waters of the Gulf of Mexico or in Canada's oil sands.
The country's shale oil resources aren't nearly as big as the country's shale gas resources. Drillers have unlocked decades' worth of natural gas, an abundance of supply that may keep prices low for years. U.S. shale oil on the other hand will only supply one to two percent of world consumption by 2015, not nearly enough to affect prices.
Still, a surge in production last year from the Bakken helped U.S. oil production grow for the second year in a row, after 23 years of decline. This during a year when drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, the nation's biggest oil-producing region, was halted after the BP oil spill.
U.S. oil production climbed steadily through most of the last century and reached a peak of 9.6 million barrels per day in 1970. The decline since was slowed by new production in Alaska in the 1980s and in the Gulf of Mexico more recently. But by 2008, production had fallen to 5 million barrels per day.
Within five years, analysts and executives predict, the newly unlocked fields are expected to produce 1 million to 2 million barrels of oil per day, enough to boost U.S. production 20 percent to 40 percent. The U.S. Energy Information Administration estimates production will grow a more modest 500,000 barrels per day.
By 2020, oil imports could be slashed by as much as 60 percent, according to Credit Suisse's Morse, who is counting on Gulf oil production to rise and on U.S. gasoline demand to fall.
At today's oil prices of roughly $90 per barrel, slashing imports that much would save the U.S. $175 billion a year. Last year, when oil averaged $78 per barrel, the U.S. sent $260 billion overseas for crude, accounting for nearly half the country's $500 billion trade deficit.
"We have redefined how to look for oil and gas," says Rehan Rashid, an analyst at FBR Capital Markets. "The implications are major for the nation."
All this was said 40 years ago. """We will be out of oil in twenty years""" Coffee is bad for you""" now coffee is good for you & we have more oil than anyone ever dreamed available + being used many times more efficiently, the """ones in the know ...do not know!!!! But they can predict the weather 50 years from now. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary -4 deg. F. Lansing MI.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Staten" <david.staten@gmail.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 2:15:02 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Replaced Tension Bolt, Oil Seal, Thrust Bearing ... back ...
Well, I can agree with Lynn for one thing.. Carter was 2nd worst president ever.... (After Bush 43)... :P
Ethanol in fuel was never about efficiency. NEVER. It was about replacing a very toxic oxygenate (MTBE) with something cleaner burning and less toxic. Lead in aviation fuel will go the same way.. its inevitable. One plant makes the lead that goes in it. They go tits up and the 25 percent of the aviation fleet that burns 75 percent of the leaded avgas will be knee-capped brutally.
Biofuel is not exclusively ethanol. Its also HYDROCARBONS synthesized or processed from living matter, as opposed to fossil fuels naturally developed from long dead matter. Its bacteria in a digester/reactor with a feedstock and a product stream. Ethanol is in cars to reduce smog.. nothing more. Biofuels in aircraft do not necessarily have to include ethanol (but it could).
Ifwe dont start doing more than paying lip service to preserving our environment, we will have the worlds best military protecting the worlds largest ecological wasteland.
As long as we are overly dependent on fossil fuels, we will be subject to the foreign policy of others. Biofuels, Nuclear, Solar, Wind, Hydroelectric... all things that need to be developed further. And if we wait until its too late to transition, our worlds best military will be reduced to throwing rocks and writing nasty letters, because our turbine powered planes and tanks dont run on good intentions.
Personally... if we have to burn oil... Why burn mine (ours) when I can burn yours (theirs)..
I'm not hardly a hairy, stoned, tree hugging hippie, but I do recognize their point..
Lynn for President,,,,,,,,,,( might be in central FL this winter, will contact, stop & say hi ) David R. Cook RV6A Rotary.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lehanover@aol.com
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 9, 2011 1:39:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Replaced Tension Bolt, Oil Seal, Thrust Bearing ... back ...
Interesting enough, though the scary part is there’s no mention in the text of AVGAS or GAS … only the subject uses the term AVGAS.
The text body uses the terms “unleaded, sustainable general aviation fuel, credible renewable, unleaded fuel, 'green' fuel and the exclusive use of biofuel in air show performances." I fear this is another attempt to push ETHANOL or heavy ethanol-blended fuel.
If you take away government subsidies from the green fuel tree hugger play. Gasohol would be gone in a month. It takes almost a gallon of fuel to produce a gallon of gasohol. You have to boil it. It is made just like Jack Danials.
It is the biggest victory of form over function ever imagined by mankind.
The farmers love it because they save money as the kernel quality is lower, and the water content is higher, and they get government money. The government pays the oil companies to use it. The oil companies get to displace actual gasoline with the crap for even more profits, and the user pays all of them extra in taxes so you can get 30% less mileage and performance. But wait...........there's more.........Plus the better corn not now being grown for feed stock plastics and human consumption has boosted the price of that corn. So the farmer profits again. The beef man looses his a__, and you pay even higher beef, pork and poultry prices in addition the taxes that support this house of cards. When beef prices get high enough, dairy herds are thinned at higher rates (younger) and milk production drops. Milk prices go up.
Send the entire energy department home. Established in 75 to eliminate our dependence on offshore oil.
Eliminate all farm subsidies. Phase out oil imports to zero over the next 7 years. Drill here. Drill now.
We can be cut off at the knees and turned into a 3rd world country by the towel heads who hate us. If you don't remember the oil crisis of 74 under the (Now) second worst president in this country's history, Jimmy Carter, Look it up. Long lines on odd license number days, or even license number days for 10 gallons of fuel.
The worlds strongest military reduced to writing nasty letters?????
If the tree huggers want to live in mud huts, smoke dope, and use gasohol let them pay for it with their money not mine.
Look up Bakken oil formation.
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