X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4647104 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 19 Dec 2010 12:13:26 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20101219171253.HADV4818.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2010 12:12:53 -0500 Received: from BigAl ([72.199.216.14]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id l5Cs1f00F0KDB3c045CsQW; Sun, 19 Dec 2010 12:12:53 -0500 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=f6Zs+/nFpEZOEYb4sJjW7E/Uz3bXH/g9omdstQ3jfxs= c=1 sm=1 a=BfgPjCRiYTsA:10 a=TPvrVRyicAsl4VeEYn0L5g==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=vitEeGzRs4aF_k6zykkA:9 a=bG7NP5Fh936YsTwhbrYA:7 a=n0BD0qcQE-U4edb5VozWaZrw8P4A:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=Py5rtrKCW8BYSIoUejwA:9 a=bFmw9PwICgqd2tMUAcAA:7 a=lRblh4nWM4yNU9f9sXaeB8j8GdgA:4 a=TPvrVRyicAsl4VeEYn0L5g==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Fw: Water temps Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 09:13:26 -0800 Message-ID: <569DA1491E114313A779908699B50E74@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01CB9F5C.FE892700" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6863 Importance: Normal Thread-Index: AcubFGLVagOWPNWUTAyAGGaDP0wflQEhvFog In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CB9F5C.FE892700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For maximum cooling of the oil from an oil/water HX (heat exchanger) = you'll want to plumb the oil from engine out to the cooler; and plumb the = cooler between the radiator and the engine return. And I'm not quite sure = about Tracy's point because no matter which leg of the coolant system you pick = up the heat from the oil cooler, you raise the temp of the coolant loop by = the amount of additional heat; so the rejection temp of the rad is higher = either way. The assumption is, of course, that you have sufficient capacity to keep the coolant exiting the engine below boiling for extended high = power. =20 On my Velocity 20B installation I have a primary radiator in the cowl, = and a secondary in the wing root; plumbed in parallel. The wing root rad has = an in-line 170F thermostat, and generally only comes on line during = extended climb. No thermostat in the engine that would restrict flow and add a potential failure mode. =20 I have an oil/air cooler and an oil/coolant HX, also plumbed in = parallel. The oil/coolant HX is plumbed to the exit of the primary rad. The oil = temp runs about 20F higher than the coolant (measured at oil return and = coolant out). I could probably reduce that difference by restricting flow to the oil/air cooler forcing more through the oil/coolant HX; but I'm quite = happy with the way things work. =20 =20 Over 200 hours and lovin' my rotary more all the time. =20 Al G =20 ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" To: keltro@att.net Sent: Mon, December 13, 2010 4:05:31 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Water temps Thanks Tracy for the adjustment in my thinking. I don't want to target = temps unrealistically.=20 Where does that leave us with our pick up and return points for the oil/water cooling system? If the oil were being cooled with water only = and we wanted the best possible chance at that, wouldn't we want to feed it = the cooler water from the high pressure side of the pump prior to entering = the block? =20 Whatever space we would use for an oil/air cooler takes away from = potential coolant radiator space. Putting the two side by side becomes less = efficient spacewise for both due to losses for structure etc. If it is not = possible to cool the oil adequately with water alone then we'll need to back up a = little and make other layout plans. I remember Richter's Cozy III with three = P-51 scoops, it got the job done but was like dragging a parachute in drag. =20 Kelly, to your comment below, while I am sure we'd have no problem = putting adequate heat into the oil, I am very concerned about keeping any more = than just enough out of it. Much easier going one way then the other =3D) ...Chrissi =20 In a message dated 12/13/2010 2:49:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, keltro@att.net writes: Chrissi, My own opinion is that after warm up and in flight the oil temp = leaving the engine before the=20 coolers (air or water to oil) will almost always be well above 160-180 F..............If it is not this high then the oil to water cooler will actually help warm it to a more efficient temp.........IMHO =20 Somebody correct me if this is a fallacy !!.......................<:) =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =20 =20 _____ =20 From: "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" To: keltro@att.net Sent: Mon, December 13, 2010 12:52:06 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Water temps This is where I get confused: =20 said previously,=20 -ideal water temp =3D 160*~180*F -ideal oil temp =3D 160*F =20 If we are cooling oil with water that is at best hotter than the ideal = temp of the oil, then are we not adding heat to it rather than removing it?=20 =20 If we are trying to cool oil, why would we feed the highest temp water = to the oil/water cooler rather than the coolest temp water by tapping into = the pump housing where it enters the block? =20 Based on feedback, the water entering the block may be as low as = 150*~160*F, would this be cool enough to do an adequate job of cooling the oil? =20 Also, which model of Mocal is being used? =20 ...Chrissi ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CB9F5C.FE892700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For maximum cooling of the oil from an oil/water HX (heat exchanger) = you’ll want to plumb the oil from engine out to the cooler; and plumb the = cooler between the radiator and the engine return.  And I’m not = quite sure about Tracy’s point because no matter which leg of the coolant = system you pick up the heat from the oil cooler, you raise the temp of the = coolant loop by the amount of additional heat; so the rejection temp of the rad = is higher either way.  The assumption is, of course, that you have = sufficient capacity to keep the coolant exiting the engine below boiling for = extended high power.

 

On my Velocity 20B installation I have a primary radiator in the cowl, and = a secondary in the wing root; plumbed in parallel. The wing root rad has = an in-line 170F thermostat, and generally only comes on line during = extended climb. No thermostat in the engine that would restrict flow and add a potential = failure mode.

 

I have an oil/air cooler and an oil/coolant HX, also plumbed in parallel. = The oil/coolant HX is plumbed to the exit of the primary rad.  The oil = temp runs about 20F higher than the coolant (measured at oil return and = coolant out). I could probably reduce that difference by restricting flow to the oil/air cooler forcing more through the oil/coolant HX; but I’m = quite happy with the way things work. 

 

Over 200 hours and lovin’ my rotary more all the = time.

 

Al = G

 

----- Forwarded Message = ----
From: "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" <CozyGirrrl@aol.com>
To: keltro@att.net
Sent: Mon, December 13, 2010 4:05:31 = PM
Subject: Re: Fw: = [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Water temps


Thanks = Tracy for the = adjustment in my thinking. I don't want to target temps unrealistically. =

Where does that leave us with our pick up and return points for the oil/water = cooling system? If the oil were being cooled with water only and we wanted the = best possible chance at that, wouldn't we want to feed it the cooler water = from the high pressure side of the pump prior to entering the = block?

 

Whatever space we would use for an oil/air cooler takes away from potential = coolant radiator space. Putting the two side by side becomes less efficient = spacewise for both due to losses for structure etc. If it is not possible to cool = the oil adequately with water alone then we'll need to back up a little and make = other layout plans. I remember Richter's Cozy III with three P-51 scoops, it = got the job done but was like dragging a parachute in drag.

 

Kelly, to your comment below, while I am sure we'd have no problem putting = adequate heat into the oil, I am very concerned about keeping any more than just = enough out of it. Much easier going one way then the other = =3D)

...Chrissi

 

In a message dated 12/13/2010 2:49:02 = P.M. Central Standard Time, keltro@att.net = writes:

Chrissi,<= /font>

  &nbs= p; My own opinion is that after warm up and in flight the oil temp leaving = the engine before the

coolers (air or water  to oil) will almost always be well above 160-180 F..............If it is not this

high then the oil to water cooler will actually help warm it to a more efficient temp.........IMHO

 

   Somebody correct me if this is a fallacy = !!.......................<:)

 

Kelly = Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)

"13B = ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETIC= S"_TO4E50 Turbo

 

 

From:<= font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma> "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" = <CozyGirrrl@aol.com>
To: keltro@att.net
Sent: Mon, December 13, 2010 = 12:52:06 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: = [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Water temps

This is where I get confused:

 

said previously,

-ideal water temp =3D 160*~180*F

-ideal oil temp =3D 160*F

 

If we are cooling oil with water that is at best hotter than the ideal temp of = the oil, then are we not adding heat to it rather than removing it? =

 

If we are trying to cool oil, why would we feed the highest temp water to the oil/water cooler rather than the coolest temp water by tapping into the = pump housing where it enters the block?

 

Based on feedback, the water entering the block may be as low as 150*~160*F, = would this be cool enough to do an adequate job of cooling the = oil?

 

Also, which model of Mocal is being used?

 

...Chrissi

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