X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4591096 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:28:09 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=3jtQBdTzPyV+fq4oCU/u8ZPrJJGN11HvhaDVxyWhycI= c=1 sm=0 a=nnixNVvgEP8A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=Vu3H3dZNAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=wzN344fxAAAA:8 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=EJRdthmyZlL9SZJt0N0A:9 a=puvbaMp3OWslaaO-3pyZCoZBFvoA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=SmiW77KTPLkbdq7f:21 a=G-huoNt8Q-K-3v5a:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=45WVuvtRhXtj2iFzjxQA:9 a=BLrm1GzsKyyyQl_8k0kA:7 a=Bdwgm7aHJteIsgXxw1_X5E8_E18A:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:49721] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id EB/D9-02631-5276DEC4; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 19:27:33 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Cut-out was [FlyRotary] Re: Friends and Family.... Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:27:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01CB8BE3.A937E200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01CB8BE3.A937E200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, Mark, I really favor the noise cancellation approach - much = more elegant - however, I figured you did not want to tow a WWII type = glider behind you with the support apparatus {:>). Seriously, the cut out approach would tame the beast on the ground - = except for the short duration during your take off roll when you are = hopefully further away from hangars and ear drums. On landing, you = probably won't be applying full power so the beast will be further way = and airborne or even if you need to turn on the muffler during landing = approach - shouldn't be too bad as you (hopefully) won't need anything = like full power. But, seriously if you are considering adding a turbo remember that ALL = turbo installations create more back pressure than just about any = muffler. True you do get some power back with the additional = combustible mixture which creates even more back pressure, etc. Not to = mention the 50-80 lbs of additional weight with turbo, exhaust = controller, oil lines, turbo header, coolant lines and intercooler and = the possible need to have an oil scavenging pump to get the oil back to = the pan from the turbo. But, Hey, don't let me persuade you differently by talking you into a 2 = lb cut-out vs 80 lbs and $3500 for a turbo installation {:>) Ed From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Cut-out was [FlyRotary] Re: Friends and = Family.... Ed,=20 You ought to be ashamed to even suggest such a thing! I would have = thought that an EE would come up with a more elaborate "electronic" = solution, such as a noise amplitude attenuation/cancellation/suppression = system (NAACS), sort of like a giant ANR headset that fits over the = tailpipe. The whole system would consist of one IC and a big speaker. = You could spend the next ten years developing it for TSO market. http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/05/bmw-diesel-shows-electronic-noise= -cancellation/ On second thought, a cutout would be a great solution, except that it = kills power where you need it the most. I may have to add a = turbo-charger just to quiet the savage beast! Mark On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Hi Mark, Chris and the rest - Happy Thanksgiving - except for scrooge = Chris of course {:>) Mark, been thinking about your exhaust conundrum - clearly the least = exhaust back pressure is best for performance out of your PP - however, = as you have indicated the Wail of an unmuffered 20B PP port might force = you to get towed to 10,000 MSL before turning on the engine to comply = with noise abatement rules. Not a very viable solution. Got me to thinking about a similar problem back in the Hot rod days. = The solution was the "cut-out" - simply a valve in the exhaust system = that diverted the exhaust through the muffler when the sound police were = in near vicinity - and then when all was safe (like Chris not being = around {:>)), the valve was switched to divert the exhaust down a = straight pipe. I'm wonder whether that might not be a viable solution to having your = cake and eating it also? For most of us running stock or mild street = ports - its probably not worth the effort, but in you case it might be.=20 Here is a URL to cut-outs both mechanically and electrically activated = http://www.jegs.com/c/Exhaust-Headers-Mufflers_Exhaust-Cutouts/11529/1000= 2/-1 Ed From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:51 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Friends and Family.... Chris,=20 Well, you can always go out to the airport and polish your turbo while = you wait for your EC-2 to arrive. ;-) If weather permits (and I get caught up on the "honey-do's") I may = venture down your way this weekend. But before I fly again, I've got to = get the EGT's hooked up after changing exhaust system. No need for me = to call, you'll be able to hear me doing my runup at 50R. That will = give you about a 45 minute warning. Are you planning to be at the = airport Saturday or Sunday? =20 Seriously, I'll call you in advance. How do I find your hangar once = on the ground? From the YouTube videos, it appears that you've got more = hangers at Ellington than Col. Sanders has chicken coops. I'll need a = road map to find your hangar. Mark =20 On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Chris Barber = wrote: FINE, I guess it is obvious that a holiday that focuses on friends = and family is more important than tending to your aviation project and = posting your progress, discoveries and insight here. NO PROBLEM. We = see where your loyalties lie and it is certainly NOT helping satisfy my = 'fix" of rotary knowledge, otherwise the silence would not be as = deafening as an un-muffled 20b at full song. Go ahead, eat your turkey, watch the Cowboys get beat, fall asleep = with that evening cocktail dangling from your hand. I can wait....... = I will be thinking of you all as I "serve and protect" while other = officers, as well as all of you, enjoy the day with their families. I = will be checking the list with disappointment as no new emails get = posted. Heavy sigh. Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving. ;-) Chris Barber Houston ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01CB8BE3.A937E200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Actually, Mark,  I really favor the noise=20 cancellation approach - much more elegant - however, I figured you did = not want=20 to tow a WWII type glider behind you with the support apparatus=20 {:>).
 
Seriously, the cut out approach would tame the = beast on=20 the ground - except for the short duration during your take off roll = when you=20 are hopefully further away from hangars and ear drums.  On landing, = you=20 probably won't be applying full power so the beast will be further way = and=20 airborne or even if you need to turn on the muffler during landing = approach -=20 shouldn't be too bad as you (hopefully) won't need anything like full=20 power.
 
But, seriously if you are considering adding a = turbo=20 remember that ALL turbo installations create more back pressure than = just about=20 any muffler.  True you do get some power back with the additional=20 combustible mixture which creates even more back pressure, etc.  = Not to=20 mention the 50-80 lbs of additional weight with turbo, exhaust = controller, oil=20 lines, turbo header, coolant lines and intercooler and the possible need = to have=20 an oil scavenging pump to get the oil back to the pan from the=20 turbo.
 
But, Hey, don't let me persuade you differently = by talking=20 you into a 2 lb cut-out vs 80 lbs and $3500 for a turbo installation=20 {:>)
 
Ed

Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:09 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Cut-out was [FlyRotary] Re: = Friends=20 and Family....

Ed,
 
You ought to be ashamed to even suggest such a thing!  I would = have=20 thought that an EE would come up with a more elaborate "electronic" = solution, such as a noise = amplitude attenuation/cancellation/suppression=20 system (NAACS), sort of like a giant ANR headset that fits over the = tailpipe.  The whole system would consist of one IC and a big=20 speaker.  You could spend the next ten years developing it for TSO=20 market.
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/05/bmw-diese= l-shows-electronic-noise-cancellation/
 
On second thought, a cutout would be a great solution, except that = it kills=20 power where you need it the most.  I may have to add a = turbo-charger just=20 to quiet the savage beast!
 
Mark

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:
 Hi Mark, Chris and the rest - Happy = Thanksgiving -=20 except for scrooge Chris of course {:>)
 
Mark, been thinking about your exhaust = conundrum -=20 clearly the least exhaust back pressure is best for performance out of = your PP=20 - however, as you have indicated the Wail of an unmuffered 20B PP=20 port might  force you to get towed to 10,000 MSL =  before=20 turning on the engine to comply with noise abatement rules.  Not = a very=20 viable solution.
 
Got me to thinking about a similar problem = back in the=20 Hot rod days.  The solution was the "cut-out" - simply a valve in = the=20 exhaust system that diverted the exhaust through the muffler when the = sound=20 police were in near vicinity - and then when all was safe (like Chris = not=20 being around {:>)), the valve was switched to divert the exhaust = down a=20 straight pipe.
 
I'm wonder whether that might not be a viable = solution=20 to having your cake and eating it also?  For most of us running = stock or=20 mild street ports - its probably not worth the effort, but in you case = it=20 might be. 
 
Here is a URL to cut-outs both mechanically = and=20 electrically activated
 
http://www.jegs.com/c/Exhaust-Headers-Mufflers_Exhaust-Cu= touts/11529/10002/-1
 
 
Ed

Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:51 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Friends and = Family....

Chris,
 
Well, you can always go out to the airport and polish your turbo = while=20 you wait for your EC-2 to arrive.  ;-)
 
If weather permits (and I get caught up on the "honey-do's") I = may=20 venture down your way this weekend.  But before I fly again, I've = got to=20 get the EGT's hooked up after changing exhaust system.  No = need for=20 me to call, you'll be able to hear me doing my runup at = 50R.  That=20 will give you about a 45 minute warning.  Are you planning to = be at=20 the airport Saturday or Sunday?  
 
Seriously, I'll call you in advance.  How do I find your = hangar once=20 on the ground?  From the YouTube videos, it appears that you've = got more=20 hangers at Ellington than Col. Sanders has chicken coops.  I'll = need a=20 road map to find your hangar.
 
Mark
 
   

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Chris = Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:
FINE, I guess it is obvious that a holiday that focuses on = friends and=20 family is more important than tending to your aviation project and = posting=20 your progress, discoveries and insight here.  NO = PROBLEM. =20 We see where your loyalties lie and it is certainly NOT = helping=20 satisfy my 'fix" of rotary knowledge, otherwise the silence would = not be=20 as deafening as=20 an un-muffled 20b at = full=20 song.
 
Go ahead, eat your turkey, watch the Cowboys get beat, fall = asleep with=20 that evening cocktail dangling from your hand.  I can = wait....... =20 I will be thinking of you all as I "serve and protect" while other = officers,=20 as well as all of you, enjoy the day with their families.  = I will=20 be checking the list with disappointment as no new = emails get=20 posted.  Heavy sigh.
 
 
Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving. ;-)
 
Chris Barber
=
Houston


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