X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4487185 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:35:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=/wPbbLlNx4yf8SUm0NWu5W7XZrQwS6yDV9JD17FB+as= c=1 sm=0 a=61ju2Vd_9Q4A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=wXhb9o77OxCBzDXicQIA:9 a=DBIFq0UY4Z-K0P4-YPEA:7 a=zFClvkho4NHONAzDRyPCTuVd0JQA:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=AeTBgmMiNPi1XIMt:21 a=v0Jr4EVLV44yjGzL:21 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=6ZO6jx11QmRhyv-vImUA:9 a=WRSiybdlBLqRJH-4ickA:7 a=9N2cCfrMAP5WUjKpupRZoMDMrgcA:4 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:49219] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 33/CB-09295-FD384AC4; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:34:40 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:34:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01CB607A.4C5FBB50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CB607A.4C5FBB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve, I believe that is essentially the correction concept used for making the = comparison between stoichometric and the O2 signal.. However, Steve Boese's comments about the Autotune function adjusting = the fuel map with the correction factor rather than my implied = real-time adjustment of the Pulse to the injector, is the way it is = actually implementation the EC/EM system. That way the adjustments are = retained in the fuel map. Ed=20 From: stevei@carey.asn.au=20 Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:42 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Ed, I believe your description is right on.=20 So autotune is a function of feedback to the EC2 from the EM2/3's O2 = sensor. Steve Izett On 30/09/2010, at 3:06 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: Al, is correct in that the EC does not directly interface with the O2 = sensor - however, because the autotune option does requires the EM2/3 = (at least I think I recall that being the case) to which the O2 sensor = is connected to, I suspect the following is a likely description of how = the autotune function works. My understanding that - the EM2 is a component of the Auto Tune system = of the EC.=20 I suspect that the EM2 has a circuit to read the O2 sensor voltage.=20 If the sensor is putting out around 0.450 volts (450 millivolts), = then the air/fuel ratio is close to stoichometric ratio of 14.7:1 = air/fuel. If the EC triggers the injectors and they produce a mixture = that is richer than 14.7:1 then the O2 voltage increases. This voltage = swing is probably detected by the EM2 and a mixture correction signal = sent to the EC to reduce the pulse width being sent to trigger the = injectors thereby reducing the air/fuel ratio and bringing it back to = Stoichometric. Should the O2 voltage drop below 450 millivolts = (indicating leaner that 14.7:1), that deviation is sense by the EM2 and = a correction sent to the EC to richen the mixture by increasing pulse = width of signal sent to injectors. So no EM2 - no autotune function, no Operational O2 sensor also = equals no AutoTune function.=20 But, just a SWAG on my part, Tracy may provide the correct description = if he gets back to the local Colorado Library {:>). Ed From: Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bill; The EC is not a closed loop system =96 does not use the O2 sensor = output =96 unless something has changed recently. Al -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bosch 11027 is the O2 sensor that Tracy recommends in the = instructions. I think the controller uses that input to maintain the = mixture where you set it. I don=92t think it is only used for setting = the map table. YMMV Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor I have the BOSCH sensor 11027 and it works fine. That=92s what I have also; and I think mine has something close to 150 = hrs and still going fine. I seldom burn avgas, so that helps. I think one needs the O2 sensor for auto tune. Yes, it does. As I understand it; with the knobs centered the EM = tunes to mid-range on the O2 sensor; roughly stoichometric. Al Rino ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:05 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor Bill, if it=92s a one wire sensor, then just about any of the = "universal" 1 wire O2 sensors you find in your auto store will work.=20 If multiwire (I.e. has a heater element and a separate sensor = ground wire), then you need to get one with the same number of wires. = If you get the same make O2 sensor, then the wires should be the same = color. Bosch has a wire chart which tells you which color wire is which = - this may help. I always get a Bosch unit - they might cost a few = bucks more, but they are generally good quality, available anywhere and = you can find the wire color code. Here's the wiring color code for the = "Universal" Bosch unit. Cable colour allocations for the Universal Oxygen Sensor are as = follows, sensor output signal wire =3D black, sensor heater element cables = =3D White ( Note - heater is not polarity sensitive ) Sensor signal = ground ( where used ) =3D Grey Important: The cable allocations must be assigned correctly. = Otherwise the Sensor could be destroyed Don't let them sell you a wide band O2 sensor which a novice parts = guy might try to do because they all have 5 -6 wires and might get = confused with a Narrow band O2 sensor with a heater. Ed From: Bill Schertz Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto tune/oxygen sensor Was going to do some auto tune in the air yesterday, to get to some = regions of the performance map that can't be reached on the ground. Took off and the O2 sensor indication completely disappeared from = the EM-2 display. Did one circuit of the airport and landed. Discovered that the O2 sensor had failed (physically -- the top fell = off and separated from the body). This caused me to raise the following = questions. 1. I believe that the oxygen sensor readout is only that, not used = by the EC-2 for control purposes. 2. When in auto tune, is the EM-2 looking at the sensor for = indications of which way to adjust the mixture? If not, what is the = feedback mechanism? I went to the Auto parts store for a replacement, and ran into the = problem that there are 100's of different oxygen sensors, and they need = to know what car it came from. Anyone have the specs on what this sensor = is? Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- The contents of this email are confidential and intended only for the = named recipients of this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail in = error, you are hereby notified that any use, reproduction, disclosure or = distribution or the information contained in this e-mail is prohibited. = Please notify the sender immediately and then delete/destroy the e-mail = and any printed copies. All liability for viruses is excluded to the = fullest extent of the law. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CB607A.4C5FBB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steve,
 
I believe that is essentially the = correction concept=20 used for making the comparison between stoichometric and the O2=20 signal..
 
However, Steve Boese's comments about the = Autotune=20 function adjusting the fuel map with the correction factor  rather = than my=20 implied real-time adjustment of the Pulse to the injector,  is the = way it=20 is  actually implementation the EC/EM system.  That way = the=20 adjustments are retained in the fuel map.
 
Ed 

From: stevei@carey.asn.au
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:42 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto tune/oxygen = sensor

Ed, I believe your description is right on.=20
So autotune is a function of feedback to the EC2 from the EM2/3's = O2=20 sensor.

Steve Izett
On 30/09/2010, at 3:06 AM, Ed Anderson wrote:
Al, is correct in that the EC does not = directly=20 interface with the O2 sensor - however, because the autotune option = does=20 requires the EM2/3 (at least I think I recall that being the = case)=20  to  which the O2 sensor is connected to, I suspect the = following is=20 a likely description of how the autotune function works.
 
My understanding that - the EM2 is a component = of the=20 Auto Tune system of the EC. 
 
 I suspect that the EM2 has a circuit to = read the=20 O2 sensor voltage. 
 
 If the sensor is putting out around = 0.450 volts=20 (450 millivolts), then the air/fuel ratio is close to stoichometric = ratio of=20 14.7:1 air/fuel.  If the EC triggers the injectors and they = produce a=20 mixture that is richer than 14.7:1 then the O2 voltage = increases.  This=20 voltage swing is probably detected by the EM2 and a mixture correction = signal=20 sent to the EC to reduce the pulse width being sent to trigger the = injectors=20 thereby reducing the air/fuel ratio and bringing it back to=20 Stoichometric.  Should the O2 voltage drop below 450 millivolts=20 (indicating leaner that 14.7:1), that deviation is sense by the EM2 = and a=20 correction sent to the EC to richen the mixture by increasing pulse = width of=20 signal sent to injectors.
 
So no EM2 - no autotune function, no = Operational=20  O2 sensor  also equals no AutoTune = function. 
 
But, just a SWAG on my part, Tracy may provide = the=20 correct description if he gets back to the local Colorado Library=20 {:>).
 
Ed
 

From: Al Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday,=20 September 29, 2010 2:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Auto tune/oxygen sensor

Bill;
 

The EC is = not a=20 closed loop system =96 does not use the O2 sensor output =96 unless = something has=20 changed recently.
 

Al
 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, = 2010 8:53=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor  

Bosch 11027 = is the O2=20 sensor that Tracy recommends in the instructions.  I think the = controller=20 uses that input to maintain the mixture where you set it.  I = don=92t think=20 it is only used for setting the map table.  = YMMV  

Bill=20 B  

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Al=20 Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, = 2010 12:07=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor  

 

I have the=20 BOSCH sensor 11027 and it works fine.
That=92s = what I have=20 also; and I think mine has something close to 150 hrs and still going = fine.=20  I seldom burn avgas, so that helps.
I think=20 one needs the O2 sensor for auto tune.
Yes, it = does. =20 As I understand it; with the knobs centered the EM tunes to mid-range = on the=20 O2 sensor; roughly stoichometric.  

Al  

 

Rino
-----=20 Original Message -----
From: Ed=20 Anderson
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, = 2010 11:05=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor
 

Bill, if=20 it=92s a one wire sensor, then just about any of the "universal" 1 = wire O2=20 sensors you find in your auto store will=20 work. 
 

 If=20 multiwire (I.e. has a heater element and a separate sensor ground = wire),=20 then you need to get one with the same number of wires.  If you = get the=20 same make O2 sensor, then the wires should be the same=20 color.
 

 =20 Bosch has a wire chart which tells you which color wire is = which  -=20 this may help.  I always get a Bosch unit - they might cost a = few bucks=20 more, but they are generally good quality, available anywhere and = you can=20 find the wire color code.  Here's the wiring color code for the = "Universal" Bosch unit.
 

Cable=20 colour allocations for the Universal Oxygen Sensor are as=20 follows,

sensor=20 output signal wire =3D black, sensor heater element = cables=20 =3D

White (=20 Note - heater is not polarity sensitive ) Sensor signal=20 ground

( where=20 used ) =3D Grey

Important:=20 The cable allocations must be assigned correctly.=20 Otherwise

the=20 Sensor could be destroyed

 

Don't=20 let them sell you a wide band O2 sensor which a novice parts guy = might try=20 to do because they all have 5 -6 wires and might get confused with a = Narrow=20 band O2 sensor with a heater.
 

Ed
 

From: Bill=20 Schertz
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, = 2010 9:10=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto = tune/oxygen=20 sensor
 

Was=20 going to do some auto tune in the air yesterday, to get to some = regions of=20 the performance map that can't be reached on the=20 ground.
 

Took off=20 and the O2 sensor indication completely disappeared from the EM-2 = display.=20 Did one circuit of the airport and landed.
 

Discovered that the O2 = sensor=20 had failed (physically -- the top fell off and separated from the = body).=20 This caused me to raise the following = questions.
 

1. I=20 believe that the oxygen sensor readout is only that, not used by the = EC-2=20 for control purposes.
2. When=20 in auto tune, is the EM-2 looking at the sensor for indications of = which way=20 to adjust the mixture? If not, what is the feedback=20 mechanism?
 

I went=20 to the Auto parts store for a replacement, and ran into the problem = that=20 there are 100's of different oxygen sensors, and they need to know = what car=20 it came from. Anyone have the specs on what this sensor=20 is?
 

 

Bill=20 Schertz
KIS Cruiser=20 #4045
N343BS
Phase I=20 = testing


The contents of this email are = confidential=20 and intended only for the named recipients of this e-mail. If you have = received=20 this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any use, = reproduction,=20 disclosure or distribution or the information contained in this e-mail = is=20 prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately and then delete/destroy = the=20 e-mail and any printed copies. All liability for viruses is excluded to = the=20 fullest extent of the law.
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