X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4486370 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:18:04 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=lu/RhtYP0ChAeUxMEPBris12a71TWT5f9yvo3GNwP9w= c=1 sm=0 a=r8XrPvmbIY0A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=JEOAzyOdAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=mwzLLwUXxJeYCEyo4OgA:9 a=pJKfOJyZ52v4_-P_UTcA:7 a=vG-k6EPt-C6neDwPL9uWMCyHKYIA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=rcag1tyjevGJFKrH:21 a=jkc0MrdxeEdRoTKu:21 a=odleSmwz8cODymsDFAQA:9 a=3sOQxaQiqM062JZOIQoA:7 a=vY2VHZUbUuWBrsrEDHUzvenS_hgA:4 a=a4YrU_sbjsXIAC7e:21 a=p4BW8QMPzuJjIvTg:21 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:54681] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id AF/6E-14228-4C093AC4; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 19:17:25 +0000 Message-ID: <88DE35B26E5D4A13B56AFAA1979D111A@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Lost Key - was Re: Oil Pressure Loss Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:17:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01CB5FE9.66AAA830" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01CB5FE9.66AAA830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill -here is one way you can start out with good pressure and have it = drop off - I reported this back a few years ago, but might be worth = repeating as its related to the oil pump shaft Key. Check this link http://members.aon.at/wrathall/rotary/ Ed From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:18 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Chris, I don't know how much oil should come out on cranking, but Lynn would = probably know. Seems like it should be gushing though, if under no = pressure. =20 I am not certain what could have happened to cause the oil to pump = freely, then drop off. Could pressure have been a problem, but was just = noticed?? Maybe the keyway or the suction pipe. I think it should turn = out to be related to your rebuild 45 hours ago. =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss =20 Sorry, I have had some major issues with notebook computer I usually use = at home. Most recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use three = post that should have been one. =20 I have NOT had the engine apart. It has about 45 hours on it since I = performed the latest rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end = housings, rebuild kit...old rotors and e-shaft). It had been running = damn good, good enough that I thought I was really close to the DAR sign = off and first flight attempt. The RPM indicator drop was a residual = issue with the EM2 I was working on trying to tie up loose ends. =20 As I mentioned, I would have not had noticed an issue just listening and = watching the engine, but while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my = RPM drop reading problem I noted the OP flashing and the low pressure = reading. =20 I am getting some oil coming out of the front of the engine and into the = remote oil filter which is located between the engine outlet and the = coolers, however, I have apparently not had enough pressure to move oil = out of the filter. I replaced the filter and the same thing occurred. = Perhaps I have not cranked the engine long enough to move it through the = filter as it was getting dark and I had not yet moved the spark plugs = and was concerned about damaging the internals and PSRU. =20 Even though I am getting flow out of the engine when cranking with the = plugs installed, I do not know how much flow it is....it is steady, but = does not seem all that strong, but of course, the engine is only = cranking and not running. Also, since I had no oil flow, I was = concerned about cranking it without oil getting to the engine and PSRU. = I hope to get out to the hangar later today and continue my checks with = the plugs removed. I am not too hopeful though, it seems as if it must = be an internal issue, especially since the mechanical gauges I hooked up = also showed low/no pressure. =20 I agree, I do not wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot = installed on top of it, plus the PITA of opening the dang thing up. = However, I have gotten pretty good and uninstalling and = reinstalling...(of course, apparently not good enough to not have a = problem). The process has gotten much faster as I have become more = methodical. =20 Dave mentioned some of the issues we know about with keys and retaining = clips. While something like that could certainly be the problem, I am = certain I addressed these very items, even though possibly not well = enough. If you would have asked, I would have thought it was good, but = now the evidence will tell. =20 I have removed most the hoses to check for obstructions and have yet to = find any. Again, the oil is coming out of the front of the engine in a = stream but low pressure with simple starter cranking, but as of yet has = not made it past the filter, which is the first "event" in the chain. =20 Do we know of a way to determine how much oil should be flowing with = simple cranking...such as "x" amount into a jar in "y" time cranking? = Yeah, grasping at straws...but I am trying to get use to the idea of = pulling the engine. =20 Heavy sigh. =20 Thanks, =20 Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Chris, Did you just have your engine apart? If so, did you have oil pressure = after that? Oil from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and = goes to the cooler. Did you check to see if oil is coming from the = first opening after the pump? If it is not, the problem is inside the = engine, if oil is coming from the pump, the problem is outside the = engine. Cooler, filter, hose, etc, don't tear it down unless you have = to. If you didn't use a mandrel when you made up your hoses, you could = have a sliver of the inside of the hose blocking the oil flow. =20 Bill B=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss =20 Oh, and maybe this is too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should = I be looking for. Yeah, large metal shards I would figure out, but if = it is not that obvious, where do I need to focus. The pressure gage?? = The pump?? Something else?? =20 Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Geeesh...the mouse froze again. =20 To continue, I got a moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the = remote filter mount. So, I had some flow. I then went to the end of = the hoses where it re-enters the engine after flowing through the two = oil coolers. Well, here there was no joy. No oil coming out. I did = refill the filter before I reinstalled it and cranked the engine for = quite a while to no avail. Next, I unhooked a few of the other hose = connections past the filter and still no flow when cranking. Finally, I = checked all the way back to the filter outlet and no oil would come out. = I changed to a different filter and still no flow from out of the = filter. So, I have some flow....not a lot into the filter buy none out. =20 I HATE the idea of dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the = oil pump and pressure gage, but I am not quite sure as what else to = check at this point. When I return tomorrow, I will remove the plugs to = take some of the stress off the starter and see if I get flow out of the = filter. I am also concerned now that I have been cranking the system = long enough that some important parts are not running with a lot of = needed oil, such as the PSRU etc. =20 If I would have just happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have = never known there was a problem as the engine "sounded" strong and = smooth and continued to do so when I started it to test my pressure = after discovering the problems. =20 Hopefully this will be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru = types on the list since it is not specific to Tracy's electronics. =20 Please, what else should I check, I am about at the end of my testing = skill set. Also, what say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like???? =20 Thanks, as always. =20 Chris Barber Houston -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Aggg. I need a new computer. The mouse froze and the message sent = prematurly. =20 Anyway, I rechecked the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all = checked fine. Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as = I still saw no pressure. =20 Next, I hooked up two separate mechanical pressure gages in three = different locations in the oil system, started the engine three times = very briefly. Each time the engin started and seemed to run fine for = the VERY short time I allowed it to run. No pressure reading on two of = the test points, and about 6psi on the reading from the turbor engine = outlet to the turbo. =20 Ok, I unscrewed the oil filter, which is located remotely just as the = oil comes out of the front (by the pully's oposite the prop) of the = engine. I hooked up a remote start switch, climbed under the engine and = cranked the engie.....I got a moderate, steady flow of oil=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure Loss In the never ending tradition of two step forward and three steps back, = I was working on my RPM drop out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal = resistors to no avail). As I was sitting on the ramp at idle for a few = minutes, focusing on the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Pressure and = noted it was flashing as an alert and was showing almost NO oil pressure = (4 or 5 psi). I instantly shut down the engine. =20 =20 The engine appeared to be running fine before I shut it down. I checked = the wire to the back of the engine monitor and all was fine. I also = checked the continutiy of the wire to the sensor and it was good. I = started the engine again and it started fine and seem to run fine, = however, the OP did not kick in so I shut it down again ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01CB5FE9.66AAA830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill -here is one way you can start out with = good pressure=20 and have it drop off - I reported this back a few years ago, but might = be worth=20 repeating as its related to the oil pump shaft Key.  Check this=20 link
 
http://members.aon.at/wra= thall/rotary/
 
Ed

From: Bill Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:18 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss

Chris,

I don=92t = know how much=20 oil should come out on cranking, but Lynn would probably know.  Seems = like it=20 should be gushing though, if under no pressure. =20

I am not = certain what=20 could have happened to cause the oil to pump freely, then drop = off.  Could=20 pressure have been a problem, but was just noticed??  Maybe the = keyway or=20 the suction pipe.  I think it should turn out to be related to your = rebuild=20 45 hours ago.

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Chris=20 Barber
Sent:=20 Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:43 PM
To: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil = Pressure=20 Loss

 

Sorry, I = have had=20 some major issues with notebook computer I usually use at home.  = Most=20 recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use three post that = should have=20 been one.

 

I have NOT = had the=20 engine apart.  It has about 45 hours on it since I performed the = latest=20 rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end housings, rebuild = kit...old=20 rotors and e-shaft).  It had been running damn good, good enough = that I=20 thought I was really close to the DAR sign off and first flight = attempt. =20 The RPM indicator drop was a residual issue with the EM2 I was = working=20 on trying to tie up loose ends.

 

As I = mentioned, I=20 would have not had noticed an issue just listening and watching the = engine, but=20 while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my RPM drop reading = problem I=20 noted the OP flashing and the low pressure=20 reading.

 

I am = getting some oil=20 coming out of the front of the engine and into the remote oil filter = which is=20 located between the engine outlet and the coolers, however, I=20 have apparently not had enough pressure to move oil out of the=20 filter.  I replaced the filter and the same thing occurred.  = Perhaps I=20 have not cranked the engine long enough to move it through the filter as = it was=20 getting dark and I had not yet moved the spark plugs and was concerned = about=20 damaging the internals and PSRU.

 

Even though = I am=20 getting flow out of the engine when cranking with the plugs installed, I = do not=20 know how much flow it is....it is steady, but does not seem all that = strong, but=20 of course, the engine is only cranking and not running.  Also, = since I had=20 no oil flow, I was concerned about cranking it without oil getting to = the engine=20 and PSRU.  I hope to get out to the hangar later today and continue = my=20 checks with the plugs removed.  I am not too hopeful though, = it seems=20 as if it must be an internal issue, especially since the = mechanical gauges=20 I hooked up also showed low/no = pressure.

 

I agree, I = do not=20 wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot installed on top of it, = plus the=20 PITA of opening the dang thing up.  However, I have gotten pretty = good and=20 uninstalling and reinstalling...(of course, apparently not good = enough to=20 not have a problem).  The process has gotten much faster as I have = become=20 more methodical.

 

Dave = mentioned some=20 of the issues we know about with keys and retaining clips.  While = something=20 like that could certainly be the problem, I am certain I addressed these = very=20 items, even though possibly not well enough.  If you would = have asked,=20 I would have thought it was good, but now the evidence will=20 tell.

 

I have = removed most=20 the hoses to check for obstructions and have yet to find any.  = Again, the=20 oil is coming out of the front of the engine in a stream but low = pressure with=20 simple starter cranking, but as of yet has not made it past the filter, = which is=20 the first "event" in the chain.

 

Do we know = of a way=20 to determine how much oil should be flowing with simple cranking...such = as "x"=20 amount into a jar in "y" time cranking?  Yeah, grasping at = straws...but I=20 am trying to get use to the idea of pulling the=20 engine.

 

Heavy=20 sigh.

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bill Brwhadburry = [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, = 2010 12:00=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil = Pressure=20 Loss

Chris,

Did you just = have your=20 engine apart?  If so, did you have oil pressure after that?  =  Oil=20 from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and goes to the = cooler. =20 Did you check to see if oil is coming from the first opening after the=20 pump?  If it is not, the problem is inside the engine, if oil is = coming=20 from the pump, the problem is outside the engine. Cooler, filter, hose,=20 etc,  don=92t tear it down unless you have to.  If you = didn=92t use a=20 mandrel when you made up your hoses, you could have a sliver of the = inside of=20 the hose blocking the oil flow.

 

Bill B=20

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Chris=20 Barber
Sent:=20 Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:26 PM
To: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil = Pressure=20 Loss

 

Oh, and = maybe this is=20 too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should I be looking = for.  Yeah,=20 large metal shards I would figure out, but if it is not that obvious, = where do I=20 need to focus.  The pressure gage?? The pump??  Something = else??

 

Chris

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris=20 Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 = 10:11=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil = Pressure=20 Loss

Geeesh...the mouse=20 froze again.

 

To = continue, I got a=20 moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the remote filter = mount.  So, I=20 had some flow.  I then went to the end of the hoses where it = re-enters the=20 engine after flowing through the two oil coolers.  Well, here there = was no=20 joy.  No oil coming out.  I did refill the filter before I = reinstalled=20 it and cranked the engine for quite a while to no avail.  Next, I = unhooked=20 a few of the other hose connections past the filter and still no flow = when=20 cranking.  Finally, I checked all the way back to the filter outlet = and no=20 oil would come out.  I changed to a different filter and still no = flow from=20 out of the filter.  So, I have some flow....not a lot into the = filter buy=20 none out.

 

I HATE the = idea of=20 dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the oil pump and = pressure gage,=20 but I am not quite sure as what else to check at this point.  When = I return=20 tomorrow, I will remove the plugs to take some of the stress off the = starter and=20 see if I get flow out of the filter.   I am also concerned now = that I=20 have been cranking the system long enough that some important parts are=20 not running with a lot of needed oil, such as the PSRU=20 etc.

 

If I would = have just=20 happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have never known there was a = problem=20 as the engine "sounded" strong and smooth and continued to do so when I = started=20 it to test my pressure after discovering the = problems.

 

Hopefully = this will=20 be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru types on the = list since=20 it is not specific to Tracy's = electronics.

 

Please, = what else=20 should I check, I am about at the end of my testing skill set.  = Also, what=20 say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like????

 

Thanks, as=20 always.

 

Chris=20 Barber

Houston

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris=20 Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 = 9:59=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil = Pressure=20 Loss

Aggg. I = need a new=20 computer.  The mouse froze and the message sent=20 prematurly.

 

Anyway, I = rechecked=20 the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all checked = fine. =20 Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as I still saw no = pressure.

 

Next, I = hooked up two=20 separate mechanical pressure gages in three different locations in the = oil=20 system, started the engine three times very briefly.  Each time=20 the engin started and seemed to run fine for the VERY short time I = allowed=20 it to run.  No pressure reading on two of the test points, and=20 about 6psi on the reading from the turbor engine outlet to the = turbo.

 

Ok, I = unscrewed the=20 oil filter, which is located remotely just as the oil comes out of the = front (by=20 the pully's oposite the prop) of the engine.  I hooked up = a=20 remote start switch, climbed under the engine and cranked the = engie.....I got a=20 moderate, steady flow of oil

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris=20 Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 = 9:42=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure = Loss

In the = never ending=20 tradition of two step forward and three steps back, I was working on my = RPM drop=20 out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal resistors to no = avail).  As I=20 was sitting on the ramp at idle for a few minutes, focusing on=20 the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Pressure and noted it was = flashing as=20 an alert and was showing almost NO oil pressure (4 or 5 psi).  I = instantly=20 shut down the engine. 

 

The engine = appeared=20 to be running fine before I shut it down.  I checked the wire to = the back=20 of the engine monitor and all was fine.  I also checked = the continutiy=20 of the wire to the sensor and it was good.  I started the engine = again and=20 it started fine and seem to run fine, however, the OP did not kick in so = I shut=20 it down again

<= /DIV>
= ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01CB5FE9.66AAA830--