X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4486333 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:29:30 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=/wPbbLlNx4yf8SUm0NWu5W7XZrQwS6yDV9JD17FB+as= c=1 sm=0 a=EOONIC41DrUA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=z_okNSuFuROcYcxOlKkA:9 a=cei4RctZFIDcR6yg4u8A:7 a=hL3YMOV0RutkdIKUejnbNWjDjxAA:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=t4zHEZBYt_WMQzNA:21 a=nC3L_VLuIZe3-_D2:21 a=-2IQU48wOJ8zeD6LvzsA:9 a=5LAspzYBilWmaEdSP-EA:7 a=zY4_22lCJo5t7F-zNkH_SQvvR08A:4 a=MjmrqeCjccMKjFdA:21 a=dIrv8nWB_tgbHlnL:21 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:54249] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 89/8A-09295-56583AC4; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:28:54 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:28:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01CB5FE2.9F5DBFC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CB5FE2.9F5DBFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, Not certain where you have your oil pressure sensor, but on my old 13B = it is after the filter and oil cooler - actually its on the aluminum = block. The point is my pressure sensor is after all of the components = in the cooling system. I suspect your's is as well.=20 So assuming your oil pump is OK here is what we have remaining. 1. There is an "O" ring between the aluminum front cover and the iron = housing (unless it has been removed and some substitute is there). If = this gets pushed out the oil pressure tyically drop down to around 20-30 = psi at max rpm). It will generally permit some oil to flow. 2. If the filter becomes clogged then most oil filters have a high = pressure by-pass which permits oil to flow even thought it will not be = filtered (better some dirty oil rather than a fried main bearing) 3. Hoses that have "Earls" type aluminum fittings have been know to = shave a rubber flap when being installed and could have gotten into a = position to block flow. You keep remarking that the oil flows to the filter but not past it - = even when you filled the filter with oil. That would cause me to try = replacing that filter with a different one. Oil filters have been know = to have their internals collapse and block flow. Unlikely - but you are = looking for any possibility to preclude tearing into the engine so don't = over look this one. As several have suggested you really need to have a mechanical pressure = gauge to see what your oil pressure is. You may have to cook up some An = fittings to block the oil flow before it gets to the filter and insert a = pressure fitting and gauge at that point. As long as your engine does = not start have no oil flowing for few revolutions should not hurt your = bearings - take a reading - if pressure doesn't come up with the flow = blocked by your measuring device then you have an internal problem. = Could be the "O" ring, could be the keys in the pump (I had that happen = to me once - flew for 10 hours before the clamping nut on the oil shaft = let go and pressure dropped during taxi - fortunately), could be the = pump, could be your oil pick up. Good luck Ed From: Chris Barber=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Sorry, I have had some major issues with notebook computer I usually use = at home. Most recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use three = post that should have been one. I have NOT had the engine apart. It has about 45 hours on it since I = performed the latest rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end = housings, rebuild kit...old rotors and e-shaft). It had been running = damn good, good enough that I thought I was really close to the DAR sign = off and first flight attempt. The RPM indicator drop was a residual = issue with the EM2 I was working on trying to tie up loose ends. As I mentioned, I would have not had noticed an issue just listening and = watching the engine, but while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my = RPM drop reading problem I noted the OP flashing and the low pressure = reading. I am getting some oil coming out of the front of the engine and into the = remote oil filter which is located between the engine outlet and the = coolers, however, I have apparently not had enough pressure to move oil = out of the filter. I replaced the filter and the same thing occurred. = Perhaps I have not cranked the engine long enough to move it through the = filter as it was getting dark and I had not yet moved the spark plugs = and was concerned about damaging the internals and PSRU. Even though I am getting flow out of the engine when cranking with the = plugs installed, I do not know how much flow it is....it is steady, but = does not seem all that strong, but of course, the engine is only = cranking and not running. Also, since I had no oil flow, I was = concerned about cranking it without oil getting to the engine and PSRU. = I hope to get out to the hangar later today and continue my checks with = the plugs removed. I am not too hopeful though, it seems as if it must = be an internal issue, especially since the mechanical gauges I hooked up = also showed low/no pressure. I agree, I do not wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot = installed on top of it, plus the PITA of opening the dang thing up. = However, I have gotten pretty good and uninstalling and = reinstalling...(of course, apparently not good enough to not have a = problem). The process has gotten much faster as I have become more = methodical. Dave mentioned some of the issues we know about with keys and retaining = clips. While something like that could certainly be the problem, I am = certain I addressed these very items, even though possibly not well = enough. If you would have asked, I would have thought it was good, but = now the evidence will tell. I have removed most the hoses to check for obstructions and have yet to = find any. Again, the oil is coming out of the front of the engine in a = stream but low pressure with simple starter cranking, but as of yet has = not made it past the filter, which is the first "event" in the chain. Do we know of a way to determine how much oil should be flowing with = simple cranking...such as "x" amount into a jar in "y" time cranking? = Yeah, grasping at straws...but I am trying to get use to the idea of = pulling the engine. Heavy sigh. Thanks, Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Chris, Did you just have your engine apart? If so, did you have oil pressure = after that? Oil from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and = goes to the cooler. Did you check to see if oil is coming from the = first opening after the pump? If it is not, the problem is inside the = engine, if oil is coming from the pump, the problem is outside the = engine. Cooler, filter, hose, etc, don=92t tear it down unless you have = to. If you didn=92t use a mandrel when you made up your hoses, you = could have a sliver of the inside of the hose blocking the oil flow. Bill B=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Oh, and maybe this is too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should = I be looking for. Yeah, large metal shards I would figure out, but if = it is not that obvious, where do I need to focus. The pressure gage?? = The pump?? Something else?? Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Geeesh...the mouse froze again. To continue, I got a moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the = remote filter mount. So, I had some flow. I then went to the end of = the hoses where it re-enters the engine after flowing through the two = oil coolers. Well, here there was no joy. No oil coming out. I did = refill the filter before I reinstalled it and cranked the engine for = quite a while to no avail. Next, I unhooked a few of the other hose = connections past the filter and still no flow when cranking. Finally, I = checked all the way back to the filter outlet and no oil would come out. = I changed to a different filter and still no flow from out of the = filter. So, I have some flow....not a lot into the filter buy none out. I HATE the idea of dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the = oil pump and pressure gage, but I am not quite sure as what else to = check at this point. When I return tomorrow, I will remove the plugs to = take some of the stress off the starter and see if I get flow out of the = filter. I am also concerned now that I have been cranking the system = long enough that some important parts are not running with a lot of = needed oil, such as the PSRU etc. If I would have just happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have = never known there was a problem as the engine "sounded" strong and = smooth and continued to do so when I started it to test my pressure = after discovering the problems. Hopefully this will be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru = types on the list since it is not specific to Tracy's electronics. Please, what else should I check, I am about at the end of my testing = skill set. Also, what say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like???? Thanks, as always. Chris Barber Houston -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Aggg. I need a new computer. The mouse froze and the message sent = prematurly. Anyway, I rechecked the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all = checked fine. Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as = I still saw no pressure. Next, I hooked up two separate mechanical pressure gages in three = different locations in the oil system, started the engine three times = very briefly. Each time the engin started and seemed to run fine for = the VERY short time I allowed it to run. No pressure reading on two of = the test points, and about 6psi on the reading from the turbor engine = outlet to the turbo. Ok, I unscrewed the oil filter, which is located remotely just as the = oil comes out of the front (by the pully's oposite the prop) of the = engine. I hooked up a remote start switch, climbed under the engine and = cranked the engie.....I got a moderate, steady flow of oil=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure Loss In the never ending tradition of two step forward and three steps back, = I was working on my RPM drop out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal = resistors to no avail). As I was sitting on the ramp at idle for a few = minutes, focusing on the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Pressure and = noted it was flashing as an alert and was showing almost NO oil pressure = (4 or 5 psi). I instantly shut down the engine. =20 The engine appeared to be running fine before I shut it down. I checked = the wire to the back of the engine monitor and all was fine. I also = checked the continutiy of the wire to the sensor and it was good. I = started the engine again and it started fine and seem to run fine, = however, the OP did not kick in so I shut it down again ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CB5FE2.9F5DBFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
 
Not certain where you have your oil pressure = sensor, but=20 on my old 13B it is after the filter and oil cooler - actually its on = the=20 aluminum block.   The point is my pressure sensor is = after all of=20 the components in the cooling system.  I suspect your's is as=20 well. 
 
So assuming your oil pump is OK here is what we = have=20 remaining.
 
1.  There is an "O" ring between = the aluminum=20 front cover and the iron housing (unless it has been removed and = some=20 substitute is there).  If this gets pushed out the oil pressure = tyically=20 drop down to around 20-30 psi at max rpm).  It will generally = permit=20 some oil to flow.
2.  If the filter becomes clogged then most = oil=20 filters have a high pressure by-pass which permits oil to flow even = thought it=20 will not be filtered (better some dirty oil rather than a fried main=20 bearing)
3. Hoses that have "Earls" type aluminum = fittings=20 have been know to shave a rubber flap when being installed and could = have gotten=20 into a position to block flow.
 
You keep remarking that the oil flows to the = filter but=20 not past it - even when you filled the filter with oil.  That would = cause=20 me to try replacing that filter with a different one.  Oil filters = have=20 been know to have their internals collapse and block flow.  = Unlikely - but=20 you are looking for any possibility to preclude tearing into the engine = so don't=20 over look this one.
 
As several have suggested you really need to = have a=20 mechanical pressure gauge to see what your oil pressure is.  You = may have=20 to cook up some An fittings to block the oil flow before it gets to the = filter=20 and insert a pressure fitting and gauge at that point.  As long as = your=20 engine does not start have no oil flowing for few revolutions should not = hurt=20 your bearings - take a reading - if pressure doesn't come up with the = flow=20 blocked by your measuring device then you have an internal = problem.  Could=20 be the "O" ring, could be the keys in the pump (I had that happen to me = once -=20 flew for 10 hours before the clamping nut on the oil shaft let go and = pressure=20 dropped during taxi - fortunately), could be the pump, could be your oil = pick=20 up.
 
Good luck
 
Ed

Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:43 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss

Sorry, I have had some major issues with notebook computer I = usually use at=20 home.  Most recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use = three post=20 that should have been one.
 
I have NOT had the engine apart.  It has about 45 hours on it = since I=20 performed the latest rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end = housings,=20 rebuild kit...old rotors and e-shaft).  It had been running damn = good, good=20 enough that I thought I was really close to the DAR sign off and first = flight=20 attempt.  The RPM indicator drop was a residual issue with=20 the EM2 I was working on trying to tie up = loose=20 ends.
 
As I mentioned, I would have not had noticed an issue just = listening and=20 watching the engine, but while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my = RPM=20 drop reading problem I noted the OP flashing and the=20 low pressure reading.
 
I am getting some oil coming out of the front of the engine and = into the=20 remote oil filter which is located between the engine outlet and the = coolers,=20 however, I have apparently not had enough pressure to move = oil out=20 of the filter.  I replaced the filter and the same thing=20 occurred.  Perhaps I have not cranked the engine long enough = to move=20 it through the filter as it was getting dark and I had not yet moved the = spark=20 plugs and was concerned about damaging the internals and=20 PSRU.
 
Even though I am getting flow out of the engine when cranking with = the=20 plugs installed, I do not know how much flow it is....it is steady, but = does not=20 seem all that strong, but of course, the engine is only cranking and not = running.  Also, since I had no oil flow, I was concerned about = cranking it=20 without oil getting to the engine and PSRU.  I hope = to get=20 out to the hangar later today and continue my checks with the plugs=20 removed.  I am not too hopeful though, it seems as if = it must=20 be an internal issue, especially since the mechanical gauges = I=20 hooked up also showed low/no pressure.
 
I agree, I do not wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot = installed=20 on top of it, plus the PITA of opening the dang thing up.  However, = I have=20 gotten pretty good and uninstalling and reinstalling...(of=20 course, apparently not good enough to not have a = problem).  The=20 process has gotten much faster as I have become more methodical.
 
Dave mentioned some of the issues we know about with keys and = retaining=20 clips.  While something like that could certainly be the problem, I = am=20 certain I addressed these very items, even though possibly = not well=20 enough.  If you would have asked, I would have thought it was good, = but now=20 the evidence will tell.
 
I have removed most the hoses to check for obstructions and have = yet to=20 find any.  Again, the oil is coming out of the front of the engine = in a=20 stream but low pressure with simple starter cranking, but as of yet has = not made=20 it past the filter, which is the first "event" in the chain.
 
Do we know of a way to determine how much oil should be flowing = with simple=20 cranking...such as "x" amount into a jar in "y" time cranking?  = Yeah,=20 grasping at straws...but I am trying to get use to the idea of pulling = the=20 engine.
 
Heavy sigh.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 on behalf of Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: = Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure=20 Loss

Chris,

Did you just = have your=20 engine apart?  If so, did you have oil pressure after that?  =  Oil=20 from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and goes to the = cooler. =20 Did you check to see if oil is coming from the first opening after the=20 pump?  If it is not, the problem is inside the engine, if oil is = coming=20 from the pump, the problem is outside the engine. Cooler, filter, hose,=20 etc,  don=92t tear it down unless you have to.  If you = didn=92t use a=20 mandrel when you made up your hoses, you could have a sliver of the = inside of=20 the hose blocking the oil flow.

 

Bill B=20

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris = Barber
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 = 11:26=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Oil Pressure Loss

 

Oh, and = maybe this is=20 too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should I be looking = for.  Yeah,=20 large metal shards I would figure out, but if it is not that obvious, = where do I=20 need to focus.  The pressure gage?? The pump??  Something = else??

 

Chris

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris Barber=20 [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 = 10:11=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Oil Pressure Loss

Geeesh...the mouse=20 froze again.

 

To = continue, I got a=20 moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the remote filter = mount.  So, I=20 had some flow.  I then went to the end of the hoses where it = re-enters the=20 engine after flowing through the two oil coolers.  Well, here there = was no=20 joy.  No oil coming out.  I did refill the filter before I = reinstalled=20 it and cranked the engine for quite a while to no avail.  Next, I = unhooked=20 a few of the other hose connections past the filter and still no flow = when=20 cranking.  Finally, I checked all the way back to the filter outlet = and no=20 oil would come out.  I changed to a different filter and still no = flow from=20 out of the filter.  So, I have some flow....not a lot into the = filter buy=20 none out.

 

I HATE the = idea of=20 dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the oil pump and = pressure gage,=20 but I am not quite sure as what else to check at this point.  When = I return=20 tomorrow, I will remove the plugs to take some of the stress off the = starter and=20 see if I get flow out of the filter.   I am also concerned now = that I=20 have been cranking the system long enough that some important parts are=20 not running with a lot of needed oil, such as the PSRU=20 etc.

 

If I would = have just=20 happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have never known there was a = problem=20 as the engine "sounded" strong and smooth and continued to do so when I = started=20 it to test my pressure after discovering the = problems.

 

Hopefully = this will=20 be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru types on the = list since=20 it is not specific to Tracy's electronics.

 

Please, = what else=20 should I check, I am about at the end of my testing skill set.  = Also, what=20 say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like????

 

Thanks, as=20 always.

 

Chris=20 Barber

Houston

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris Barber=20 [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 = 9:59=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Oil Pressure Loss

Aggg. I = need a new=20 computer.  The mouse froze and the message sent=20 prematurly.

 

Anyway, I = rechecked=20 the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all checked = fine. =20 Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as I still saw no = pressure.

 

Next, I = hooked up two=20 separate mechanical pressure gages in three different locations in the = oil=20 system, started the engine three times very briefly.  Each time=20 the engin started and seemed to run fine for the VERY short time I = allowed=20 it to run.  No pressure reading on two of the test points, and=20 about 6psi on the reading from the turbor engine outlet to the = turbo.

 

Ok, I = unscrewed the=20 oil filter, which is located remotely just as the oil comes out of the = front (by=20 the pully's oposite the prop) of the engine.  I hooked up = a=20 remote start switch, climbed under the engine and cranked the = engie.....I got a=20 moderate, steady flow of oil

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris Barber=20 [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 = 9:42=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Oil Pressure Loss

In the = never ending=20 tradition of two step forward and three steps back, I was working on my = RPM drop=20 out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal resistors to no = avail).  As I=20 was sitting on the ramp at idle for a few minutes, focusing on=20 the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Pressure and noted it was = flashing as=20 an alert and was showing almost NO oil pressure (4 or 5 psi).  I = instantly=20 shut down the engine. 

 

The engine = appeared=20 to be running fine before I shut it down.  I checked the wire to = the back=20 of the engine monitor and all was fine.  I also checked = the continutiy=20 of the wire to the sensor and it was good.  I started the engine = again and=20 it started fine and seem to run fine, however, the OP did not kick in so = I shut=20 it down=20 again

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