X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost03.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4486318 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:19:15 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.103; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-85-141-241.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.141.241]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc03) with SMTP id <20100929181836H03002u3kqe>; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:18:36 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.141.241] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:18:38 -0400 Message-ID: <273CE22C798E4D3D9E02A104BD7C3274@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01CB5FE1.366218F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Actf/fAdJgTFURfsRii15umquww/wAAA//jw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CB5FE1.366218F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, I don't know how much oil should come out on cranking, but Lynn would probably know. Seems like it should be gushing though, if under no pressure. I am not certain what could have happened to cause the oil to pump freely, then drop off. Could pressure have been a problem, but was just noticed?? Maybe the keyway or the suction pipe. I think it should turn out to be related to your rebuild 45 hours ago. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Sorry, I have had some major issues with notebook computer I usually use at home. Most recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use three post that should have been one. I have NOT had the engine apart. It has about 45 hours on it since I performed the latest rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end housings, rebuild kit...old rotors and e-shaft). It had been running damn good, good enough that I thought I was really close to the DAR sign off and first flight attempt. The RPM indicator drop was a residual issue with the EM2 I was working on trying to tie up loose ends. As I mentioned, I would have not had noticed an issue just listening and watching the engine, but while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my RPM drop reading problem I noted the OP flashing and the low pressure reading. I am getting some oil coming out of the front of the engine and into the remote oil filter which is located between the engine outlet and the coolers, however, I have apparently not had enough pressure to move oil out of the filter. I replaced the filter and the same thing occurred. Perhaps I have not cranked the engine long enough to move it through the filter as it was getting dark and I had not yet moved the spark plugs and was concerned about damaging the internals and PSRU. Even though I am getting flow out of the engine when cranking with the plugs installed, I do not know how much flow it is....it is steady, but does not seem all that strong, but of course, the engine is only cranking and not running. Also, since I had no oil flow, I was concerned about cranking it without oil getting to the engine and PSRU. I hope to get out to the hangar later today and continue my checks with the plugs removed. I am not too hopeful though, it seems as if it must be an internal issue, especially since the mechanical gauges I hooked up also showed low/no pressure. I agree, I do not wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot installed on top of it, plus the PITA of opening the dang thing up. However, I have gotten pretty good and uninstalling and reinstalling...(of course, apparently not good enough to not have a problem). The process has gotten much faster as I have become more methodical. Dave mentioned some of the issues we know about with keys and retaining clips. While something like that could certainly be the problem, I am certain I addressed these very items, even though possibly not well enough. If you would have asked, I would have thought it was good, but now the evidence will tell. I have removed most the hoses to check for obstructions and have yet to find any. Again, the oil is coming out of the front of the engine in a stream but low pressure with simple starter cranking, but as of yet has not made it past the filter, which is the first "event" in the chain. Do we know of a way to determine how much oil should be flowing with simple cranking...such as "x" amount into a jar in "y" time cranking? Yeah, grasping at straws...but I am trying to get use to the idea of pulling the engine. Heavy sigh. Thanks, Chris _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Chris, Did you just have your engine apart? If so, did you have oil pressure after that? Oil from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and goes to the cooler. Did you check to see if oil is coming from the first opening after the pump? If it is not, the problem is inside the engine, if oil is coming from the pump, the problem is outside the engine. Cooler, filter, hose, etc, don't tear it down unless you have to. If you didn't use a mandrel when you made up your hoses, you could have a sliver of the inside of the hose blocking the oil flow. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Oh, and maybe this is too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should I be looking for. Yeah, large metal shards I would figure out, but if it is not that obvious, where do I need to focus. The pressure gage?? The pump?? Something else?? Chris _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Geeesh...the mouse froze again. To continue, I got a moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the remote filter mount. So, I had some flow. I then went to the end of the hoses where it re-enters the engine after flowing through the two oil coolers. Well, here there was no joy. No oil coming out. I did refill the filter before I reinstalled it and cranked the engine for quite a while to no avail. Next, I unhooked a few of the other hose connections past the filter and still no flow when cranking. Finally, I checked all the way back to the filter outlet and no oil would come out. I changed to a different filter and still no flow from out of the filter. So, I have some flow....not a lot into the filter buy none out. I HATE the idea of dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the oil pump and pressure gage, but I am not quite sure as what else to check at this point. When I return tomorrow, I will remove the plugs to take some of the stress off the starter and see if I get flow out of the filter. I am also concerned now that I have been cranking the system long enough that some important parts are not running with a lot of needed oil, such as the PSRU etc. If I would have just happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have never known there was a problem as the engine "sounded" strong and smooth and continued to do so when I started it to test my pressure after discovering the problems. Hopefully this will be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru types on the list since it is not specific to Tracy's electronics. Please, what else should I check, I am about at the end of my testing skill set. Also, what say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like???? Thanks, as always. Chris Barber Houston _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Aggg. I need a new computer. The mouse froze and the message sent prematurly. Anyway, I rechecked the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all checked fine. Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as I still saw no pressure. Next, I hooked up two separate mechanical pressure gages in three different locations in the oil system, started the engine three times very briefly. Each time the engin started and seemed to run fine for the VERY short time I allowed it to run. No pressure reading on two of the test points, and about 6psi on the reading from the turbor engine outlet to the turbo. Ok, I unscrewed the oil filter, which is located remotely just as the oil comes out of the front (by the pully's oposite the prop) of the engine. I hooked up a remote start switch, climbed under the engine and cranked the engie.....I got a moderate, steady flow of oil _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure Loss In the never ending tradition of two step forward and three steps back, I was working on my RPM drop out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal resistors to no avail). As I was sitting on the ramp at idle for a few minutes, focusing on the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Pressure and noted it was flashing as an alert and was showing almost NO oil pressure (4 or 5 psi). I instantly shut down the engine. The engine appeared to be running fine before I shut it down. I checked the wire to the back of the engine monitor and all was fine. I also checked the continutiy of the wire to the sensor and it was good. I started the engine again and it started fine and seem to run fine, however, the OP did not kick in so I shut it down again ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CB5FE1.366218F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chris,

I don’t know how much oil = should come out on cranking, but Lynn would probably know.  Seems like it should be gushing though, if = under no pressure. 

I am not certain what could have = happened to cause the oil to pump freely, then drop off.  Could pressure = have been a problem, but was just noticed??  Maybe the keyway or the suction pipe.  I think it should turn out to be related to your rebuild 45 = hours ago.

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris = Barber
Sent: Wednesday, = September 29, 2010 1:43 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Oil Pressure Loss

 

Sorry, I have had some major = issues with notebook computer I usually use at home.  Most recently with the = mouse freezing, so, I had to use three post that should have been = one.

 

I have NOT had the engine = apart.  It has about 45 hours on it since I performed the latest rebuild using = mostly new parts (rotor & end housings, rebuild kit...old rotors and = e-shaft).  It had been running damn good, good enough that I thought I was really = close to the DAR sign off and first flight attempt.  The RPM indicator drop = was a residual issue with the EM2 I was working on trying to = tie up loose ends.

 

As I mentioned, I would have not = had noticed an issue just listening and watching the engine, but while I was = trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my RPM drop reading problem I noted the = OP flashing and the low pressure reading.

 

I am getting some oil coming out = of the front of the engine and into the remote oil filter which is located = between the engine outlet and the coolers, however, I have apparently not had = enough pressure to move oil out of the filter.  I replaced the filter and = the same thing occurred.  Perhaps I have not cranked the engine long = enough to move it through the filter as it was getting dark and I had not yet = moved the spark plugs and was concerned about damaging the internals and = PSRU.

 

Even though I am getting flow out = of the engine when cranking with the plugs installed, I do not know how much = flow it is....it is steady, but does not seem all that strong, but of course, = the engine is only cranking and not running.  Also, since I had no oil = flow, I was concerned about cranking it without oil getting to the engine and PSRU.  I hope to get out to the hangar later today and continue my = checks with the plugs removed.  I am not too hopeful though, it seems = as if it must be an internal issue, especially since the = mechanical gauges I hooked up also showed low/no pressure.

 

I agree, I do not wish to tear = down the engine, as I have a lot installed on top of it, plus the PITA of opening = the dang thing up.  However, I have gotten pretty good and uninstalling = and reinstalling...(of course, apparently not good enough to not have a problem).  The process has gotten much faster as I have become more methodical.

 

Dave mentioned some of the issues = we know about with keys and retaining clips.  While something like = that could certainly be the problem, I am certain I addressed these very items, = even though possibly not well enough.  If you would have asked, I = would have thought it was good, but now the evidence will = tell.

 

I have removed most the hoses to = check for obstructions and have yet to find any.  Again, the oil is = coming out of the front of the engine in a stream but low pressure with simple = starter cranking, but as of yet has not made it past the filter, which is the = first "event" in the chain.

 

Do we know of a way to determine = how much oil should be flowing with simple cranking...such as "x" = amount into a jar in "y" time cranking?  Yeah, grasping at = straws...but I am trying to get use to the idea of pulling the = engine.

 

Heavy = sigh.

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

=

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on = behalf of Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Wednesday, = September 29, 2010 12:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Oil Pressure Loss

Chris,

Did you just have your engine = apart?  If so, did you have oil pressure after that?   Oil from the = pump comes out of the lower front housing and goes to the cooler.  Did = you check to see if oil is coming from the first opening after the = pump?  If it is not, the problem is inside the engine, if oil is coming from the = pump, the problem is outside the engine. Cooler, filter, hose, etc,  = don’t tear it down unless you have to.  If you didn’t use a mandrel = when you made up your hoses, you could have a sliver of the inside of the = hose blocking the oil flow.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris = Barber
Sent: Tuesday, September = 28, 2010 11:26 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Oil Pressure Loss

 

Oh, and maybe this is too = obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should I be looking for.  Yeah, large = metal shards I would figure out, but if it is not that obvious, where do I = need to focus.  The pressure gage?? The pump??  Something = else??

 

Chris

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on = behalf of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September = 28, 2010 10:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Oil Pressure Loss

Geeesh...the mouse froze = again.

 

To continue, I got a moderate, = steady stream of oil coming from the remote filter mount.  So, I had some flow.  I then went to the end of the hoses where it re-enters the = engine after flowing through the two oil coolers.  Well, here there was no joy.  No oil coming out.  I did refill the filter before I reinstalled it and cranked the engine for quite a while to no = avail.  Next, I unhooked a few of the other hose connections past the filter and = still no flow when cranking.  Finally, I checked all the way back to the = filter outlet and no oil would come out.  I changed to a different filter = and still no flow from out of the filter.  So, I have some flow....not = a lot into the filter buy none out.

 

I HATE the idea of dropping the = pan (will be a real pain) to check the oil pump and pressure gage, but I am = not quite sure as what else to check at this point.  When I return = tomorrow, I will remove the plugs to take some of the stress off the starter and see = if I get flow out of the filter.   I am also concerned now that I = have been cranking the system long enough that some important parts are not running with a lot of needed oil, such as the PSRU = etc.

 

If I would have just happened to = look at the OP gauge, I would have never known there was a problem as the engine "sounded" strong and smooth and continued to do so when I = started it to test my pressure after discovering the problems.

 

Hopefully this will be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru types on the list since = it is not specific to Tracy's electronics.

 

Please, what else should I check, = I am about at the end of my testing skill set.  Also, what say ye as to = what the problem "sounds" like????

 

Thanks, as = always.

 

Chris Barber

Houston

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on = behalf of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September = 28, 2010 9:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Oil Pressure Loss

Aggg. I need a new = computer.  The mouse froze and the message sent prematurly.

 

Anyway, I rechecked the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all checked fine.  Again, = I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as I still saw no = pressure.

 

Next, I hooked up two separate mechanical pressure gages in three different locations in the oil = system, started the engine three times very briefly.  Each time = the engin started and seemed to run fine for the VERY short time I allowed it to run.  No pressure reading on two of the test points, and = about 6psi on the reading from the turbor engine outlet to the = turbo.

 

Ok, I unscrewed the oil filter, = which is located remotely just as the oil comes out of the front (by the pully's oposite the prop) of the engine.  I hooked up = a remote start switch, climbed under the engine and cranked the = engie.....I got a moderate, steady flow of oil

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on = behalf of Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September = 28, 2010 9:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil = Pressure Loss

In the never ending tradition of = two step forward and three steps back, I was working on my RPM drop out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal resistors to no avail).  As = I was sitting on the ramp at idle for a few minutes, focusing on = the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Pressure and noted it was flashing as an alert = and was showing almost NO oil pressure (4 or 5 psi).  I instantly shut = down the engine. 

 

The engine appeared to be running = fine before I shut it down.  I checked the wire to the back of the = engine monitor and all was fine.  I also checked the continutiy of = the wire to the sensor and it was good.  I started the engine again and it = started fine and seem to run fine, however, the OP did not kick in so I shut it = down again

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