X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4486265 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:44:12 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from fcd-mail06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) by FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([::1]) with mapi; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:43:23 -0500 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Thread-Index: AQHLX/f3gWBFTFnTmEWwKmBJVwvKTpMpMPfj Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:43:23 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30326A050B@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30326A050BFCDMAIL06FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30326A050BFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I have had some major issues with notebook computer I usually use at= home. Most recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use three post = that should have been one. I have NOT had the engine apart. It has about 45 hours on it since I perfo= rmed the latest rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end housings, rebui= ld kit...old rotors and e-shaft). It had been running damn good, good enou= gh that I thought I was really close to the DAR sign off and first flight a= ttempt. The RPM indicator drop was a residual issue with the EM2 I was wor= king on trying to tie up loose ends. As I mentioned, I would have not had noticed an issue just listening and wa= tching the engine, but while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my RPM = drop reading problem I noted the OP flashing and the low pressure reading. I am getting some oil coming out of the front of the engine and into the re= mote oil filter which is located between the engine outlet and the coolers,= however, I have apparently not had enough pressure to move oil out of the = filter. I replaced the filter and the same thing occurred. Perhaps I have= not cranked the engine long enough to move it through the filter as it was= getting dark and I had not yet moved the spark plugs and was concerned abo= ut damaging the internals and PSRU. Even though I am getting flow out of the engine when cranking with the plug= s installed, I do not know how much flow it is....it is steady, but does no= t seem all that strong, but of course, the engine is only cranking and not = running. Also, since I had no oil flow, I was concerned about cranking it = without oil getting to the engine and PSRU. I hope to get out to the hanga= r later today and continue my checks with the plugs removed. I am not too = hopeful though, it seems as if it must be an internal issue, especially sin= ce the mechanical gauges I hooked up also showed low/no pressure. I agree, I do not wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot installed o= n top of it, plus the PITA of opening the dang thing up. However, I have g= otten pretty good and uninstalling and reinstalling...(of course, apparentl= y not good enough to not have a problem). The process has gotten much fast= er as I have become more methodical. Dave mentioned some of the issues we know about with keys and retaining cli= ps. While something like that could certainly be the problem, I am certain= I addressed these very items, even though possibly not well enough. If yo= u would have asked, I would have thought it was good, but now the evidence = will tell. I have removed most the hoses to check for obstructions and have yet to fin= d any. Again, the oil is coming out of the front of the engine in a stream= but low pressure with simple starter cranking, but as of yet has not made = it past the filter, which is the first "event" in the chain. Do we know of a way to determine how much oil should be flowing with simple= cranking...such as "x" amount into a jar in "y" time cranking? Yeah, gras= ping at straws...but I am trying to get use to the idea of pulling the engi= ne. Heavy sigh. Thanks, Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Chris, Did you just have your engine apart? If so, did you have oil pressure afte= r that? Oil from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and goes t= o the cooler. Did you check to see if oil is coming from the first opening= after the pump? If it is not, the problem is inside the engine, if oil is= coming from the pump, the problem is outside the engine. Cooler, filter, h= ose, etc, don=92t tear it down unless you have to. If you didn=92t use a = mandrel when you made up your hoses, you could have a sliver of the inside = of the hose blocking the oil flow. Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Chris Barber Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Oh, and maybe this is too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should I b= e looking for. Yeah, large metal shards I would figure out, but if it is n= ot that obvious, where do I need to focus. The pressure gage?? The pump?? = Something else?? Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Geeesh...the mouse froze again. To continue, I got a moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the remote = filter mount. So, I had some flow. I then went to the end of the hoses wh= ere it re-enters the engine after flowing through the two oil coolers. Wel= l, here there was no joy. No oil coming out. I did refill the filter befo= re I reinstalled it and cranked the engine for quite a while to no avail. = Next, I unhooked a few of the other hose connections past the filter and st= ill no flow when cranking. Finally, I checked all the way back to the filt= er outlet and no oil would come out. I changed to a different filter and s= till no flow from out of the filter. So, I have some flow....not a lot int= o the filter buy none out. I HATE the idea of dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the oil = pump and pressure gage, but I am not quite sure as what else to check at th= is point. When I return tomorrow, I will remove the plugs to take some of = the stress off the starter and see if I get flow out of the filter. I am = also concerned now that I have been cranking the system long enough that so= me important parts are not running with a lot of needed oil, such as the PS= RU etc. If I would have just happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have never k= nown there was a problem as the engine "sounded" strong and smooth and cont= inued to do so when I started it to test my pressure after discovering the = problems. Hopefully this will be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru type= s on the list since it is not specific to Tracy's electronics. Please, what else should I check, I am about at the end of my testing skill= set. Also, what say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like???? Thanks, as always. Chris Barber Houston ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Aggg. I need a new computer. The mouse froze and the message sent prematur= ly. Anyway, I rechecked the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all ch= ecked fine. Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as I st= ill saw no pressure. Next, I hooked up two separate mechanical pressure gages in three different= locations in the oil system, started the engine three times very briefly. = Each time the engin started and seemed to run fine for the VERY short time= I allowed it to run. No pressure reading on two of the test points, and a= bout 6psi on the reading from the turbor engine outlet to the turbo. Ok, I unscrewed the oil filter, which is located remotely just as the oil c= omes out of the front (by the pully's oposite the prop) of the engine. I h= ooked up a remote start switch, climbed under the engine and cranked the en= gie.....I got a moderate, steady flow of oil ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure Loss In the never ending tradition of two step forward and three steps back, I w= as working on my RPM drop out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal resistors to = no avail). As I was sitting on the ramp at idle for a few minutes, focusin= g on the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Pressure and noted it was flashing= as an alert and was showing almost NO oil pressure (4 or 5 psi). I instan= tly shut down the engine. The engine appeared to be running fine before I shut it down. I checked th= e wire to the back of the engine monitor and all was fine. I also checked = the continutiy of the wire to the sensor and it was good. I started the en= gine again and it started fine and seem to run fine, however, the OP did no= t kick in so I shut it down again --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30326A050BFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, I have had some major issues with notebook computer I usually u= se at home.  Most recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use t= hree post that should have been one.
 
I have NOT had the engine apart.  It has about 45 hours on it sin= ce I performed the latest rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end h= ousings, rebuild kit...old rotors and e-shaft).  It had been running d= amn good, good enough that I thought I was really close to the DAR sign off and first flight attempt.  The RPM indicato= r drop was a residual issue with the EM2 I was work= ing on trying to tie up loose ends.
 
As I mentioned, I would have not had noticed an issue just listening a= nd watching the engine, but while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my= RPM drop reading problem I noted the OP flashing and the low pre= ssure reading.
 
I am getting some oil coming out of the front of the engine and into t= he remote oil filter which is located between the engine outlet and the coo= lers, however, I have apparently not had enough pressure to mov= e oil out of the filter.  I replaced the filter and the same thing occurred.  Perhaps I have not cr= anked the engine long enough to move it through the filter as it was gettin= g dark and I had not yet moved the spark plugs and was concerned about dama= ging the internals and PSRU.
 
Even though I am getting flow out of the engine when cranking with the= plugs installed, I do not know how much flow it is....it is steady, but do= es not seem all that strong, but of course, the engine is only cranking and= not running.  Also, since I had no oil flow, I was concerned about cranking it without oil getting to the = engine and PSRU.  I hope to get out to the hangar later = today and continue my checks with the plugs removed.  I am not too&nbs= p;hopeful though, it seems as if it must be an internal issue, especially since the mechanical gauges I= hooked up also showed low/no pressure.
 
I agree, I do not wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot instal= led on top of it, plus the PITA of opening the dang thing up.  However= , I have gotten pretty good and uninstalling and reinstalling...(of course,=  apparently not good enough to not have a problem).  The process has gotten much faster as I have be= come more methodical.
 
Dave mentioned some of the issues we know about with keys and retainin= g clips.  While something like that could certainly be the problem, I = am certain I addressed these very items, even though possibly n= ot well enough.  If you would have asked, I would have thought it was good, but now the evidence will tell.
 
I have removed most the hoses to check for obstructions and have yet t= o find any.  Again, the oil is coming out of the front of the engine i= n a stream but low pressure with simple starter cranking, but as of yet has= not made it past the filter, which is the first "event" in the chain.
 
Do we know of a way to determine how much oil should be flowing with s= imple cranking...such as "x" amount into a jar in "y" t= ime cranking?  Yeah, grasping at straws...but I am trying to get use t= o the idea of pulling the engine.
 
Heavy sigh.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@= lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]=
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss

Chris,

Did you just ha= ve your engine apart?  If so, did you have oil pressure after that?&nb= sp;  Oil from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and goes to the cooler.  Did you check to see if oil is comin= g from the first opening after the pump?  If it is not, the problem is= inside the engine, if oil is coming from the pump, the problem is outside = the engine. Cooler, filter, hose, etc,  don=92t tear it down unless you have to.  If you didn=92t use a mandrel when = you made up your hoses, you could have a sliver of the inside of the hose b= locking the oil flow.

&= nbsp;

Bill B

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Tuesday, September 28= , 2010 11:26 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oi= l Pressure Loss

 

Oh, and may= be this is too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should I be looking f= or.  Yeah, large metal shards I would figure out, but if it is not that obvious, where do I need to focus.  The pr= essure gage?? The pump??  Something else??

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris= Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28= , 2010 10:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oi= l Pressure Loss

Geeesh...th= e mouse froze again.

 

To continue= , I got a moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the remote filter moun= t.  So, I had some flow.  I then went to the end of the hoses where it re-enters the engine after flowing through the t= wo oil coolers.  Well, here there was no joy.  No oil coming out.=   I did refill the filter before I reinstalled it and cranked the engi= ne for quite a while to no avail.  Next, I unhooked a few of the other hose connections past the filter and still no flow when= cranking.  Finally, I checked all the way back to the filter outlet a= nd no oil would come out.  I changed to a different filter and still n= o flow from out of the filter.  So, I have some flow....not a lot into the filter buy none out.

 

I HATE the = idea of dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the oil pump and pr= essure gage, but I am not quite sure as what else to check at this point.  When I return tomorrow, I will remove t= he plugs to take some of the stress off the starter and see if I get flow o= ut of the filter.   I am also concerned now that I have been cran= king the system long enough that some important parts are not running with a lot of needed oil, such as the PSRU= etc.

 

If I would = have just happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have never known there = was a problem as the engine "sounded" strong and smooth and continued to do so when I started it to test my pressure af= ter discovering the problems.

 

Hopefully t= his will be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru types on t= he list since it is not specific to Tracy's electronics.

 

Please, wha= t else should I check, I am about at the end of my testing skill set. = Also, what say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like????

 

Thanks, as = always.

 

Chris Barbe= r

Houston

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris= Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28= , 2010 9:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oi= l Pressure Loss

Aggg. I nee= d a new computer.  The mouse froze and the message sent prematurly.

 

Anyway, I r= echecked the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all checked = fine.  Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as I still saw no pressure.

 

Next, I hoo= ked up two separate mechanical pressure gages in three different locations = in the oil system, started the engine three times very briefly.  Each time the engin started and seemed to r= un fine for the VERY short time I allowed it to run.  No pressure read= ing on two of the test points, and about 6psi on the reading from the&= nbsp;turbor engine outlet to the turbo.

 

Ok, I unscr= ewed the oil filter, which is located remotely just as the oil comes out of= the front (by the pully's oposite the prop) of the engine.  I hooked up a remote start switch, climbed under the = engine and cranked the engie.....I got a moderate, steady flow of oil

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris= Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28= , 2010 9:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pr= essure Loss

In the neve= r ending tradition of two step forward and three steps back, I was working = on my RPM drop out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal resistors to no avail).  As I was sitting on the ramp at idle fo= r a few minutes, focusing on the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Press= ure and noted it was flashing as an alert and was showing almost NO oil pre= ssure (4 or 5 psi).  I instantly shut down the engine. 

 

The engine = appeared to be running fine before I shut it down.  I checked the wire= to the back of the engine monitor and all was fine.  I also checked the continutiy of the wire to the sensor a= nd it was good.  I started the engine again and it started fine and se= em to run fine, however, the OP did not kick in so I shut it down again

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