X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.160.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4215683 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:49:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1so2944711pwi.25 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=QFL/nv3bSJbYKri/2bSSmzdtaiRTFVfPteLRnC+BvIo=; b=FyWM9LQSz/ioCWoIHVociNEyHQTCTfO2Qn8bseU1o1C8Zpr0zZk/wiy/uPLOEVrRQL wsn2b4DFqLlQ99NBki8IdR7IguPgbeeGfNaSUrIe1KaIWefiAIB64LtDUt8zExdN7u1m 5mSvOY6Z/zQewnWXDwJwjOZcCf4HB88+NcHRo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=njabyap+qDzqpQmAzV5/1i66Bs4bYQ6H4ilX3/BnM/HXhbOq9Or9dmu4skPb/KcVjY FA+3Q7WM6hU22/ap22aP0BBRlstkOYiZLj/sTC7zyNCbJnuNfHGQLC2i6jKJyhy/yVe/ HqBgR2UnBZiIaHGp+XZY3YcQbeafSZvV3XqRg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.183.195 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:48:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:48:56 -0500 Received: by 10.115.117.6 with SMTP id u6mr352649wam.191.1270828136586; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Progress?? From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64ea262a7029d0483cfbbf4 --0016e64ea262a7029d0483cfbbf4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Yes, I've flown it a couple of times, but decided to ground it to do some other upgrades. It is about ready to fly again. Mark On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Mark, > I presume the P port 20B is not ready for flight yet ??............. > -- > Kelly Troyer > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > > > > -------------- Original message from Mark Steitle : > -------------- > > Bill, > > It don't think it is a balance issue, or else I would feel it at other > times, such as ground runs. It feels more like when you're going up hill= in > your car/truck in too high of a gear. I can go to manual mode on the M/T > controller and go coarser on the pitch (which brings the engine rpm down > even more) and the vibration is worse than at 1700. Since bearing loads = are > lowest at 5900, I will just run closer to that rpm. This whole thing is > just theory anyway. It could have nothing to do with the smoking rivets. > > The heat muff is just a typical heat muff mounted on the down pipe. > Aircraft Exhaust built the pieces and they do very nice work. I would > recommend going the lighter route. Another thing I didn't consider when > building my first heater was how difficult it would make it to work behin= d > the panel. I usually just removed the heater to do anything behind the > right sub-panel. Not fun! And finally, it didn't work all that well. > > Yes, I plan to be back in the air this weekend. > > Mark S. > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> >> >> Could there be some balance issues with the prop at 1700 that you are >> feeling? With the throttle open, can you slow the prop down below 1700= ? >> I wonder if the vibration is related to the engine rpm or the prop rpm? >> >> Some pictures of the heat muff and old cabin heater would be nice. I pl= an >> to install a water heater but have not bought one yet. If you decide to >> part with your old heater, I might be interested, I am still on the fenc= e >> about that or a heat muff. >> >> >> >> Bummer about the o rings! Will you get back in the air with the new PP >> engine this weekend? >> >> >> >> Bill B >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Mark Steitle >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:43 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Progress?? >> >> Bill, >> >> >> >> I don't feel a surge in speed when going from takeoff mode to cruise mod= e. >> You can hear the engine slow down, but since I usually start dialing ba= ck >> the prop rpm's shortly after takeoff, I am still in climb mode when I do >> this. The M/T prop changes pitch very slowly, so that would work agains= t >> feeling a boost of speed when changing prop settings. >> >> >> >> My best guess on the smoking rivets is that it may have been caused by >> running the engine at around 5100 rpm for long periods. This is possibl= e at >> full throttle with the c/s prop set to 1700 rpm. When running at that rp= m >> (cruise), I can feel a slight vibration in the airframe. Run the engine >> faster and the vibration goes away, but the fuel burn goes up too. So t= his >> may be a harmonics issue caused by running the engine too slowly. Solut= ion >> is to not run at less than 5500 rpm. We'll see how that works out. >> >> >> >> I have been fabricating a new intake and slide-throttle for the new p-po= rt >> motor, along with a new inconel tangential exhaust, and installing an MS= D >> ignition on the leading plugs. I've also removed the water cabin heater= in >> favor of a heat muff, and CO detector. >> >> >> >> I had a setback with my new engine when I noticed portions of the #3 rot= or >> TES o-rings "oozing" out from between the seams on the cold side of the >> engine. Upon disassembly it appeared that the o-ring got pinched during >> assembly. I believe this was caused by me using too much Hylomar durin= g >> assembly which reduced the available area for the o-ring to squeeze duri= ng >> torquing. I have reassembled the engine with new TES o-rings, using a >> minimal amount of Hylomar. I have run the engine about 1/2 hour now and= it >> looks to be good to go. Lesson learned! >> >> >> >> I'm very pleased with the new inconel tangential muffler. It >> is discernibly quieter than my old exhaust system (with DNA muffler). T= he >> entire exhaust weighs 17.4 lbs, but the fact that it also replaces the w= ater >> cabin heater makes up for about 6# for a net weight savings. The big >> improvement is in noise reduction. I'll take some measurements and post >> them later. I should make it clear that my tangential muffler uses a >> slotted tube that runs down through the length of the 5" tube. This tub= e is >> also inconel and is welded to both ends, thereby adding strength to the = flat >> ends. I utilized Lynn's coupling design to allow for movement between t= he >> muffler and the engine. >> >> >> >> I'll post more on my MSD conversion later, but it is set up to provide >> multi spark throughout the entire rpm range. I hope to get lower fuel b= urn >> at cruise altitude from the MSD ignitions. >> >> >> >> I hope to be back into the air this weekend. >> >> >> >> Mark S. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Bill Bradburry >> wrote: >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> >> >> You have several projects in works=85getting your drive plate back toget= her, >> building the PP 20B. How are you progressing? How about an update? On >> both projects. >> >> >> >> Regards the rivets loosening. You are one of the few with a constant >> speed prop. I am assuming that when you dial from takeoff prop to cruis= e >> prop, the plane would surge forward with acceleration and the engine wou= ld >> reduce rpm as the prop starts to bite. That would have put a lot of for= ce >> on the rivets. This, along with you more powerful engine, could have be= en a >> player??? If so, those quarter inch bolts should move the weak spot up = the >> chain to wherever the next weakest link is. That, hopefully, may be abo= ve >> your operating envelope. :>) >> >> >> >> Bill B >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > --0016e64ea262a7029d0483cfbbf4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly,=A0

Yes, I've flown it a couple of times, but = decided to ground it to do some other upgrades. =A0It is about ready to fly= again.

Mark

On Fri, A= pr 9, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:
Mark,
=A0=A0 I presume the P port 20B is not ready for flight yet ??........= .....
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&q= uot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold <= br>


=A0
-------------- Original message from Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>: --= ------------

Bill,=A0

It don't think it is a balance issue, or else I would feel it at o= ther times, such as ground runs. =A0It feels more like when you're goin= g up hill in your car/truck in too high of a gear. =A0I can go to manual mo= de on the M/T controller and go coarser on the pitch (which brings the engi= ne rpm down even more) and the vibration is worse than at 1700. =A0Since be= aring loads are lowest at 5900, I will just run closer to that rpm. =A0This= whole thing is just theory anyway. =A0It could have nothing to do with the= smoking rivets.

The heat muff is just a typical heat muff mounted on the down pipe. = =A0Aircraft Exhaust built the pieces and they do very nice work. =A0I would= recommend going the lighter route. =A0Another thing I didn't consider = when building my first heater was how difficult it would make it to work be= hind the panel. =A0I usually just removed the heater to do anything behind = the right sub-panel. =A0Not fun! =A0And finally, it didn't work all tha= t well. =A0

Yes, I plan to be back in the air this weekend.

Mark S.

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Bill Bradburry = <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Mark,

=A0

Could there be some balance issues with the prop at 17= 00 that you are feeling?=A0=A0 With the throttle open, can you slow the pro= p down below 1700?=A0=A0 I wonder if the vibration is related to the engine= rpm or the prop rpm?

Some pictures of the heat muff and old cabin heater wo= uld be nice.=A0 I plan to install a water heater but have not bought one ye= t.=A0 If you decide to part with your old heater, I might be interested, I = am still on the fence about that or a heat muff.

=A0

Bummer about the o rings!=A0 Will you get back in the = air with the new PP engine this weekend?

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net] On Behalf Of = Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2= 010 8:43 PM
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Progress??

Bill,=A0

=A0

I don't feel a surge in speed when going from take= off mode to cruise mode. =A0You can hear the engine slow down, but since I = usually start dialing back the prop rpm's shortly after takeoff, I am s= till in climb mode when I do this. =A0The M/T prop changes pitch very slowl= y, so that would work against feeling a boost of speed when changing prop s= ettings. =A0

=A0

My best guess on the smoking rivets is that it may hav= e been caused by running the engine at around 5100 rpm for long periods. = =A0This is possible at full throttle with the c/s prop set to 1700 rpm. Whe= n running at that rpm (cruise), I can feel a slight vibration in the airfra= me. =A0Run the engine faster and the vibration goes away, but the fuel burn= goes up too. =A0So this may be a harmonics issue caused by running the eng= ine too slowly. =A0Solution is to not run at less than 5500 rpm. =A0We'= ll see how that works out. =A0

=A0

I have been fabricating a new intake and slide-throttl= e for the new p-port motor, along with a new inconel tangential exhaust, an= d installing an MSD ignition on the leading plugs. =A0I've also removed= the water cabin heater in favor of a heat muff, and CO detector. =A0

=A0

I had a setback with my new engine when I noticed port= ions of the #3 rotor TES o-rings "oozing" out from between the se= ams on the cold side of the engine. =A0Upon disassembly it appeared that th= e o-ring got pinched during assembly. =A0 I believe this was caused by me u= sing too much Hylomar during assembly which reduced the available area for = the o-ring to squeeze during torquing. =A0I have reassembled the engine wit= h new TES o-rings, using a minimal amount of Hylomar. =A0I have run the eng= ine about 1/2 hour now and it looks to be good to go. =A0Lesson learned!

=A0

I'm very pleased with the new inconel tangential m= uffler. =A0It is=A0discernibly=A0quieter than my old exhaust system (with D= NA muffler). =A0The entire exhaust weighs 17.4 lbs, but the fact that it al= so replaces the water cabin heater makes up for about 6# for a net weight s= avings. =A0The big improvement is in noise reduction. =A0I'll take some= measurements and post them later. =A0I should make it clear that my tangen= tial muffler uses a slotted tube that runs down through the length of the 5= " tube. =A0This tube is also inconel and is welded to both ends, there= by adding strength to the flat ends. =A0I utilized Lynn's coupling desi= gn to allow for movement between the muffler and the engine. =A0

=A0

I'll post more on my MSD conversion later, but it = is set up to provide multi spark throughout the entire rpm range. =A0I hope= to get lower fuel burn at cruise altitude from the MSD ignitions.

=A0

I hope to be back into the air this weekend.

=A0

Mark S.

=A0

=A0

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bells= outh.net> wrote:

=A0Hi Mark,

=A0

You have several projects in works=85getting your driv= e plate back together, building the PP 20B.=A0 How are you progressing?=A0 = How about an update?=A0 On both projects.

=A0

Regards the rivets loosening.=A0 You are one of the fe= w with a constant speed prop.=A0 I am assuming that when you dial from take= off prop to cruise prop, the plane would surge forward with acceleration an= d the engine would reduce rpm as the prop starts to bite.=A0 That would hav= e put a lot of force on the rivets.=A0 This, along with you more powerful e= ngine, could have been a player???=A0 If so, those quarter inch bolts shoul= d move the weak spot up the chain to wherever the next weakest link is.=A0 = That, hopefully, may be above your operating envelope.=A0=A0 :>)<= /font>

=A0

Bill B

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0



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