X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost02.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4215618 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:02:24 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.102; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1270825343; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=enA98Y VF/NEVindgEQce3ns/0QAk1Q1GZETauCSLs5A=; b=oAnD/RcpPFLrQquOIBt1S/zux X42JfRERH+7asBsoH8J+nZWatouFqXOwkt8LdDQlpVj77PZU62lLrCNZw1fLQ== Received: from fwebmail09.isp.att.net ([204.127.218.109]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc02) with SMTP id <20100409150147H0200kspp4e>; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:01:47 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.218.109] Received: from [208.114.47.129] by fwebmail09.isp.att.net; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:01:47 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Progress?? Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:01:47 +0000 Message-Id: <040920101501.21365.4BBF415A0009264A0000537522218675169B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21365_1270825307_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21365_1270825307_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, I presume the P port 20B is not ready for flight yet ??............. -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from Mark Steitle : ---= -----------=20 Bill,=20 It don't think it is a balance issue, or else I would feel it at other time= s, such as ground runs. It feels more like when you're going up hill in yo= ur car/truck in too high of a gear. I can go to manual mode on the M/T con= troller and go coarser on the pitch (which brings the engine rpm down even = more) and the vibration is worse than at 1700. Since bearing loads are low= est at 5900, I will just run closer to that rpm. This whole thing is just = theory anyway. It could have nothing to do with the smoking rivets. The heat muff is just a typical heat muff mounted on the down pipe. Aircra= ft Exhaust built the pieces and they do very nice work. I would recommend = going the lighter route. Another thing I didn't consider when building my = first heater was how difficult it would make it to work behind the panel. = I usually just removed the heater to do anything behind the right sub-panel= . Not fun! And finally, it didn't work all that well.=20=20 Yes, I plan to be back in the air this weekend. Mark S. On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: Mark, Could there be some balance issues with the prop at 1700 that you are feeli= ng? With the throttle open, can you slow the prop down below 1700? I wo= nder if the vibration is related to the engine rpm or the prop rpm? Some pictures of the heat muff and old cabin heater would be nice. I plan = to install a water heater but have not bought one yet. If you decide to pa= rt with your old heater, I might be interested, I am still on the fence abo= ut that or a heat muff. Bummer about the o rings! Will you get back in the air with the new PP eng= ine this weekend? Bill B From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Progress?? Bill,=20=20 I don't feel a surge in speed when going from takeoff mode to cruise mode. = You can hear the engine slow down, but since I usually start dialing back = the prop rpm's shortly after takeoff, I am still in climb mode when I do th= is. The M/T prop changes pitch very slowly, so that would work against fee= ling a boost of speed when changing prop settings.=20=20 My best guess on the smoking rivets is that it may have been caused by runn= ing the engine at around 5100 rpm for long periods. This is possible at fu= ll throttle with the c/s prop set to 1700 rpm. When running at that rpm (cr= uise), I can feel a slight vibration in the airframe. Run the engine faste= r and the vibration goes away, but the fuel burn goes up too. So this may = be a harmonics issue caused by running the engine too slowly. Solution is = to not run at less than 5500 rpm. We'll see how that works out.=20=20 I have been fabricating a new intake and slide-throttle for the new p-port = motor, along with a new inconel tangential exhaust, and installing an MSD i= gnition on the leading plugs. I've also removed the water cabin heater in = favor of a heat muff, and CO detector.=20=20 I had a setback with my new engine when I noticed portions of the #3 rotor = TES o-rings "oozing" out from between the seams on the cold side of the eng= ine. Upon disassembly it appeared that the o-ring got pinched during assem= bly. I believe this was caused by me using too much Hylomar during assemb= ly which reduced the available area for the o-ring to squeeze during torqui= ng. I have reassembled the engine with new TES o-rings, using a minimal am= ount of Hylomar. I have run the engine about 1/2 hour now and it looks to = be good to go. Lesson learned! I'm very pleased with the new inconel tangential muffler. It is discernibl= y quieter than my old exhaust system (with DNA muffler). The entire exhaus= t weighs 17.4 lbs, but the fact that it also replaces the water cabin heate= r makes up for about 6# for a net weight savings. The big improvement is i= n noise reduction. I'll take some measurements and post them later. I sho= uld make it clear that my tangential muffler uses a slotted tube that runs = down through the length of the 5" tube. This tube is also inconel and is w= elded to both ends, thereby adding strength to the flat ends. I utilized L= ynn's coupling design to allow for movement between the muffler and the eng= ine.=20=20 I'll post more on my MSD conversion later, but it is set up to provide mult= i spark throughout the entire rpm range. I hope to get lower fuel burn at = cruise altitude from the MSD ignitions. I hope to be back into the air this weekend. Mark S. On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Bill Bradburry w= rote: Hi Mark, You have several projects in works=E2=80=A6getting your drive plate back to= gether, building the PP 20B. How are you progressing? How about an update= ? On both projects. Regards the rivets loosening. You are one of the few with a constant speed= prop. I am assuming that when you dial from takeoff prop to cruise prop, = the plane would surge forward with acceleration and the engine would reduce= rpm as the prop starts to bite. That would have put a lot of force on the= rivets. This, along with you more powerful engine, could have been a play= er??? If so, those quarter inch bolts should move the weak spot up the cha= in to wherever the next weakest link is. That, hopefully, may be above you= r operating envelope. :>) Bill B --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21365_1270825307_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21365_1270825307_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21365_1270825307_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
   I presume the P port 20B is not ready for flight yet ??..= ...........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from Mark Steitle <msteit= le@gmail.com>: --------------

Bill, 

It don't think it is a balance issue, or else I would feel it at other= times, such as ground runs.  It feels more like when you're going up = hill in your car/truck in too high of a gear.  I can go to manual mode= on the M/T controller and go coarser on the pitch (which brings the engine= rpm down even more) and the vibration is worse than at 1700.  Since b= earing loads are lowest at 5900, I will just run closer to that rpm.  = This whole thing is just theory anyway.  It could have nothing to do w= ith the smoking rivets.

The heat muff is just a typical heat muff mounted on the down pipe. &n= bsp;Aircraft Exhaust built the pieces and they do very nice work.  I w= ould recommend going the lighter route.  Another thing I didn't consid= er when building my first heater was how difficult it would make it to work= behind the panel.  I usually just removed the heater to do anything b= ehind the right sub-panel.  Not fun!  And finally, it didn't work= all that well.  

Yes, I plan to be back in the air this weekend.

Mark S.

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@be= llsouth.net> wrote:

Mark,

 

Could there be some balance issues with the prop at 1700 = that you are feeling?   With the throttle open, can you slow the = prop down below 1700?   I wonder if the vibration is related to t= he engine rpm or the prop rpm?

Some pictures of the heat muff and old cabin heater would= be nice.  I plan to install a water heater but have not bought one ye= t.  If you decide to part with your old heater, I might be interested,= I am still on the fence about that or a heat muff.

 

Bummer about the o rings!  Will you get back in the = air with the new PP engine this weekend?

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net] On Behalf Of = Mark Steitle
Sent: W= ednesday, April 07, 2010 8:43 PM
To= : Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Progress??

Bill, 

 

I don't feel a surge in speed when going from takeoff mod= e to cruise mode.  You can hear the engine slow down, but since I usua= lly start dialing back the prop rpm's shortly after takeoff, I am still in = climb mode when I do this.  The M/T prop changes pitch very slowly, so= that would work against feeling a boost of speed when changing prop settin= gs.  

 

My best guess on the smoking rivets is that it may have b= een caused by running the engine at around 5100 rpm for long periods.  = ;This is possible at full throttle with the c/s prop set to 1700 rpm. When = running at that rpm (cruise), I can feel a slight vibration in the airframe= .  Run the engine faster and the vibration goes away, but the fuel bur= n goes up too.  So this may be a harmonics issue caused by running the= engine too slowly.  Solution is to not run at less than 5500 rpm. &nb= sp;We'll see how that works out.  

 

I have been fabricating a new intake and slide-throttle f= or the new p-port motor, along with a new inconel tangential exhaust, and i= nstalling an MSD ignition on the leading plugs.  I've also removed the= water cabin heater in favor of a heat muff, and CO detector.  =

 

I had a setback with my new engine when I noticed portion= s of the #3 rotor TES o-rings "oozing" out from between the seams on the co= ld side of the engine.  Upon disassembly it appeared that the o-ring g= ot pinched during assembly.   I believe this was caused by me using to= o much Hylomar during assembly which reduced the available area for the o-r= ing to squeeze during torquing.  I have reassembled the engine with ne= w TES o-rings, using a minimal amount of Hylomar.  I have run the engi= ne about 1/2 hour now and it looks to be good to go.  Lesson learned!<= /SPAN>

 

I'm very pleased with the new inconel tangential muffler.=  It is discernibly quieter than my old exhaust system (with= DNA muffler).  The entire exhaust weighs 17.4 lbs, but the fact that = it also replaces the water cabin heater makes up for about 6# for a net wei= ght savings.  The big improvement is in noise reduction.  I'll ta= ke some measurements and post them later.  I should make it clear that= my tangential muffler uses a slotted tube that runs down through the lengt= h of the 5" tube.  This tube is also inconel and is welded to both end= s, thereby adding strength to the flat ends.  I utilized Lynn's coupli= ng design to allow for movement between the muffler and the engine.  <= /SPAN>

 

I'll post more on my MSD conversion later, but it is set = up to provide multi spark throughout the entire rpm range.  I hope to = get lower fuel burn at cruise altitude from the MSD ignitions.

 

I hope to be back into the air this weekend.

 

Mark S.

 

 

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.= net> wrote:

 Hi Mark,

 

You have several projects in works=E2=80=A6getting your d= rive plate back together, building the PP 20B.  How are you progressin= g?  How about an update?  On both projects.

 

Regards the rivets loosening.  You are one of the fe= w with a constant speed prop.  I am assuming that when you dial from t= akeoff prop to cruise prop, the plane would surge forward with acceleration= and the engine would reduce rpm as the prop starts to bite.  That wou= ld have put a lot of force on the rivets.  This, along with you more p= owerful engine, could have been a player???  If so, those quarter inch= bolts should move the weak spot up the chain to wherever the next weakest = link is.  That, hopefully, may be above your operating envelope. =   :>)

 

Bill B

 

 

 

 


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