X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw0-f204.google.com ([209.85.211.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4214187 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:42:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.211.204; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by ywh42 with SMTP id 42so1268898ywh.7 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 05:41:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=+UcG+5qMUeqi4vdJFiqLHcTJbJLF6t4HTanZRvQHzok=; b=pbPjzwiIxBHcdEzcEaah9CDHc+26PF5Pz5BvjdDLL+mw5XSCXohx5LgxXEDj/gf+UQ zYCzma/FIImCUwwHhKaXF/oyiU6w/nXV4jnwrwJuqxaEyp+yhm6rWokJa9sdyi1jKxTZ uKySJc6wdyEBtUR0SMEDCmo4eflFF8rmRIpjo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=VjTRClf7BR99gOS5dslf5Hd5URqVO54kmGfPQNn3veCh1AZJcVHtWLeAOfK7wmc46l sVUwM1vSCkG1Q8g0TTkRByhDxSjUzUwCmRnq1wm+T4ZiL/IDUzwehT1a16YP+dbyVs91 Nn+kUjDSL7Ebs7xKnPQT8/Mbhbn8sgeO76Myk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.183.195 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:41:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:41:54 -0500 Received: by 10.151.20.6 with SMTP id x6mr183784ybi.235.1270730514851; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 05:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Progress?? From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd4b2acf16ea00483b900f9 --000e0cd4b2acf16ea00483b900f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, It don't think it is a balance issue, or else I would feel it at other times, such as ground runs. It feels more like when you're going up hill i= n your car/truck in too high of a gear. I can go to manual mode on the M/T controller and go coarser on the pitch (which brings the engine rpm down even more) and the vibration is worse than at 1700. Since bearing loads ar= e lowest at 5900, I will just run closer to that rpm. This whole thing is just theory anyway. It could have nothing to do with the smoking rivets. The heat muff is just a typical heat muff mounted on the down pipe. Aircraft Exhaust built the pieces and they do very nice work. I would recommend going the lighter route. Another thing I didn't consider when building my first heater was how difficult it would make it to work behind the panel. I usually just removed the heater to do anything behind the right sub-panel. Not fun! And finally, it didn't work all that well. Yes, I plan to be back in the air this weekend. Mark S. On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Bill Bradburry w= rote: > Mark, > > > > Could there be some balance issues with the prop at 1700 that you are > feeling? With the throttle open, can you slow the prop down below 1700? > I wonder if the vibration is related to the engine rpm or the prop rpm? > > Some pictures of the heat muff and old cabin heater would be nice. I pla= n > to install a water heater but have not bought one yet. If you decide to > part with your old heater, I might be interested, I am still on the fence > about that or a heat muff. > > > > Bummer about the o rings! Will you get back in the air with the new PP > engine this weekend? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:43 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Progress?? > > Bill, > > > > I don't feel a surge in speed when going from takeoff mode to cruise mode= . > You can hear the engine slow down, but since I usually start dialing bac= k > the prop rpm's shortly after takeoff, I am still in climb mode when I do > this. The M/T prop changes pitch very slowly, so that would work against > feeling a boost of speed when changing prop settings. > > > > My best guess on the smoking rivets is that it may have been caused by > running the engine at around 5100 rpm for long periods. This is possible= at > full throttle with the c/s prop set to 1700 rpm. When running at that rpm > (cruise), I can feel a slight vibration in the airframe. Run the engine > faster and the vibration goes away, but the fuel burn goes up too. So th= is > may be a harmonics issue caused by running the engine too slowly. Soluti= on > is to not run at less than 5500 rpm. We'll see how that works out. > > > > I have been fabricating a new intake and slide-throttle for the new p-por= t > motor, along with a new inconel tangential exhaust, and installing an MSD > ignition on the leading plugs. I've also removed the water cabin heater = in > favor of a heat muff, and CO detector. > > > > I had a setback with my new engine when I noticed portions of the #3 roto= r > TES o-rings "oozing" out from between the seams on the cold side of the > engine. Upon disassembly it appeared that the o-ring got pinched during > assembly. I believe this was caused by me using too much Hylomar during > assembly which reduced the available area for the o-ring to squeeze durin= g > torquing. I have reassembled the engine with new TES o-rings, using a > minimal amount of Hylomar. I have run the engine about 1/2 hour now and = it > looks to be good to go. Lesson learned! > > > > I'm very pleased with the new inconel tangential muffler. It > is discernibly quieter than my old exhaust system (with DNA muffler). Th= e > entire exhaust weighs 17.4 lbs, but the fact that it also replaces the wa= ter > cabin heater makes up for about 6# for a net weight savings. The big > improvement is in noise reduction. I'll take some measurements and post > them later. I should make it clear that my tangential muffler uses a > slotted tube that runs down through the length of the 5" tube. This tube= is > also inconel and is welded to both ends, thereby adding strength to the f= lat > ends. I utilized Lynn's coupling design to allow for movement between th= e > muffler and the engine. > > > > I'll post more on my MSD conversion later, but it is set up to provide > multi spark throughout the entire rpm range. I hope to get lower fuel bu= rn > at cruise altitude from the MSD ignitions. > > > > I hope to be back into the air this weekend. > > > > Mark S. > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Bill Bradburry > wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > > You have several projects in works=85getting your drive plate back togeth= er, > building the PP 20B. How are you progressing? How about an update? On > both projects. > > > > Regards the rivets loosening. You are one of the few with a constant spe= ed > prop. I am assuming that when you dial from takeoff prop to cruise prop, > the plane would surge forward with acceleration and the engine would redu= ce > rpm as the prop starts to bite. That would have put a lot of force on th= e > rivets. This, along with you more powerful engine, could have been a > player??? If so, those quarter inch bolts should move the weak spot up t= he > chain to wherever the next weakest link is. That, hopefully, may be abov= e > your operating envelope. :>) > > > > Bill B > > > > > > > > > --000e0cd4b2acf16ea00483b900f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill,=A0

It don't think it is a balance issue, or el= se I would feel it at other times, such as ground runs. =A0It feels more li= ke when you're going up hill in your car/truck in too high of a gear. = =A0I can go to manual mode on the M/T controller and go coarser on the pitc= h (which brings the engine rpm down even more) and the vibration is worse t= han at 1700. =A0Since bearing loads are lowest at 5900, I will just run clo= ser to that rpm. =A0This whole thing is just theory anyway. =A0It could hav= e nothing to do with the smoking rivets.

The heat muff is just a typical heat muff mounted on th= e down pipe. =A0Aircraft Exhaust built the pieces and they do very nice wor= k. =A0I would recommend going the lighter route. =A0Another thing I didn= 9;t consider when building my first heater was how difficult it would make = it to work behind the panel. =A0I usually just removed the heater to do any= thing behind the right sub-panel. =A0Not fun! =A0And finally, it didn't= work all that well. =A0

Yes, I plan to be back in the air this weekend.

Mark S.

On Wed, Apr 7, = 2010 at 11:17 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Mark,

=A0

Could there be some balance issues with the prop at = 1700 that you are feeling?=A0=A0 With the throttle open, can you slow the prop down below 1700?=A0=A0 I wonder if the vibration is related to the engine rpm or the prop rpm?

Some pictures of the heat muff and old cabin heater = would be nice.=A0 I plan to install a water heater but have not bought one yet.=A0 If you decide to part with your old heater, I might be interested, I am sti= ll on the fence about that or a heat muff.

=A0

Bummer about the o rings!=A0 Will you get back in th= e air with the new PP engine this weekend?

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2= 010 8:43 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Progress??

Bill,=A0

=A0

I don't feel a surge in speed when going from ta= keoff mode to cruise mode. =A0You can hear the engine slow down, but since I usually start dialing back the prop rpm's shortly after takeoff, I am still in climb = mode when I do this. =A0The M/T prop changes pitch very slowly, so that would work against feeling a boost of speed when changing prop settings. =A0

=A0

My best guess on the smoking rivets is that it may h= ave been caused by running the engine at around 5100 rpm for long periods. =A0This is possible at full throttle with the c/s prop set to 1700 rpm. When running at that rp= m (cruise), I can feel a slight vibration in the airframe. =A0Run the engine faster and the vibration goes away, but the fuel burn goes up too. =A0So this may be a harmonics issue caused by running the engine too slowly. =A0Solution is to not run at less than 5500 rpm. =A0We'll see how that works out. =A0

=A0

I have been fabricating a new intake and slide-throt= tle for the new p-port motor, along with a new inconel tangential exhaust, and installing a= n MSD ignition on the leading plugs. =A0I've also removed the water cabin heater in favor of a heat muff, and CO detector. =A0

=A0

I had a setback with my new engine when I noticed po= rtions of the #3 rotor TES o-rings "oozing" out from between the seams on the cold= side of the engine. =A0Upon disassembly it appeared that the o-ring got pinched during assembly. =A0 I believe this was caused by me using too much Hylomar during assembly which reduced the available area for the o-ring to squeeze during torquing. =A0I have reassembled the engine with new TES o-rings, using a minimal amount of Hylomar. =A0I have run the engine about 1/2 hour now and it looks to be good to go. =A0Lesson learned!

=A0

I'm very pleased with the new inconel tangential= muffler. =A0It is=A0discernibly=A0quieter than my old exhaust system (with DNA muffler). =A0The entire exhaust weighs 17.4 lbs, but the fact that it also replaces the water cabin heater makes up for about 6# for a net weight savings. =A0The big improvement is in noise reduction. =A0I'll take some measurements and post them later. =A0I should make it clear that my tangential muffler uses a slotted tube that runs down through the length of= the 5" tube. =A0This tube is also inconel and is welded to both ends, thereby adding strength to the flat ends. =A0I utilized Lynn's coupling= design to allow for movement between the muffler and the engine. =A0

=A0

I'll post more on my MSD conversion later, but i= t is set up to provide multi spark throughout the entire rpm range. =A0I hope to get lower fuel burn at cruise altitude from the MSD ignitions.

=A0

I hope to be back into the air this weekend.<= /font>

=A0

Mark S.

=A0

=A0

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Bill Bradburry <<= a href=3D"mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net" target=3D"_blank">bbradburry@bel= lsouth.net> wrote:

=A0Hi Mark,

=A0

You have several projects in works=85getting your drive plate back together, building the PP 20B.=A0 How are you progressing?=A0 How about an update?=A0 On both projects.

=A0

Regards the rivets loosening.=A0 You are one of the few with a constant speed prop.=A0 I am assuming that when you dial from takeoff prop to cruise prop, the plane wou= ld surge forward with acceleration and the engine would reduce rpm as the prop starts to bite.=A0 That would have put a lot of force on the rivets.=A0 This, along with you more powerful engine, could have been a player???=A0 I= f so, those quarter inch bolts should move the weak spot up the chain to wher= ever the next weakest link is.=A0 That, hopefully, may be above your operating envelope.=A0=A0 :>)

=A0

Bill B

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0


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