X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4126195 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:40:38 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=cmXQj32YTj8A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=HYGMlCPhKiKVO9i_v2UA:9 a=SPI6OoBAwljKWwhBFk4A:7 a=XlFn6-pajYfO7IkywIpIXqKERJoA:4 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=mOsYFpdGC2k88jITqxcA:9 a=S2HH4YbkUQ1jxllWrmQA:7 a=KB2UY5rgTS2GT3jqdJ0BJS9FN18A:4 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.191.186.236 Received: from [75.191.186.236] ([75.191.186.236:1440] helo=computername) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 95/22-02874-377F97B4; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 01:40:04 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" Message-ID: <95.22.02874.377F97B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Lubrication wasRE: [FlyRotary] PSRU oiling question Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:44:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01CAAE7F.A25305B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acqude3yvg3505pxQJ+XL/eqTSvPbgAMYkog In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CAAE7F.A25305B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I once my gearbox freeze up as well, Chris. But, it was very clear the culprit - I had the housing nickel plated and while I made it very clear to the plating shop that the inner race of the bronze pressure bearing was to be protected and not plated - well, I think you can guess what happened. It turns out this process produces a light gold/tan color and when I visually examined the bearing it looked fine. Buttoned it back up and flew for 10 hours. Went out one Cold morning to go to fly in and pulled the prop through as I normally did. It felt a bit stiff, but it was a cold morning, so I hopped in threw a few switches and fire up the engine - it ran for approx 10 seconds before dying. Somewhat surprised (but, it was a cold morning), I try to crank it again, all I got for my effort was a groan from the engine and notice my volt meter go from 12.5 volts to approx 6 volts - I immediately ceased my attempt to start the engine. Unbuckled and climbed out. Went to the prop and tried to pull it through and could barely budge it with considerable force. Sent it to Tracy, and he found that nickel plating had come lose from the bronze bearing and had basically packed up the bearing and took up the clearance between shaft and bore. Tracy bored out the bronze bearing a few fraction of a thousands and it was good as new. You are right - the front bearing does not rely on engine oil for lubrication but is permanently lubricated. The bronze bearing is pressure fed from the engine - mine gets approx 80 PSI. If you are in doubt about your PSRU engine fed lubrication, take off the drain and hook up a hose to end (secure it well so it can't get into the prop and run the hose into a container). Start your engine and run it for approx 30 sec. shut it down and go measure the amount of oil in your container, you should find at least a pint. With the old Ross Redrive with a pressure restrictor I could get a pint in 60 seconds. OR if you feel comfortable with it - don't bother, I never checked it on Tracy's drive but had on the Ross because I knew some units had marginal lubrication - and that is the reason I ditched the Ross after about 160 hours the sun gear start galling from lack of adequate lubrication. With Tracy's unit being fed full engine oil pressure (no restrictor) I don't have that concern. But, if for any reason you do have a question about your lubrication flow you could do this check. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 2:34 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] PSRU oiling question I just received my PSRU back from Tracy. If I understand his explanation correctly my prop shaft bearing at the end near the prop (pusher) bound up somehow. He machined it, made other needed adjustments (?) and sent it back to me very promptly...bout a week turn around (of course I dropped a bit on overnight shipping to make sure he got it before he was off again ). The problem may have been due to a couple of factors....not really sure, but I discovered it after my plane was sitting out of the hangar due to roof repairs for about 6 or 7 weeks. When I went up to start it to taxi back to the hangar, I pulled the prop through a few times by hand and all seemed fine. I started it up, started, was tickled, but it it stalled. Did I mention it was REALLY cold for Houston...about 27 degrees. I started it again and is sounded "labored" and was running poorly. It was about 1:00 am (I had just gotten off duty), so I figured I call it a night. I got out and turned the prop through again and could barely turn the prop. Damn. I thought I toasted another engine. Damn. A couple of days later a friend and I pushed the plane back to the hangar and I walked away from the issue for a couple of weeks. Went so far as to even looking at financing a Lyc . I distracted myself by doing some interior work and wiring...actually got my radios far enough along to listen to ATIS for a few minutes...on the bench. Finally, two days after my recent loss, I forced myself to the hangar and pulled the PSRU. I had already looked inside the exhaust ports and the chambers looked clean and smooth. I had also drained the oil, with a magnet (I know, some is aluminum) in the drain filter and found it all to be perfectly clean. Well, without the PSRU the engine turned perfectly making that sweet churning sound through the open spark plug holes. I turned to the PSRU. I took out each section slooooowly. No signs of binding, chipping or any other damage in each part....until I got to the last section, the sealed section by the prop. The prop hub would not turn. I could barely turn it with the prop on. Without the prop is was a no go. So, I sent it to Tracy. ANYWAY, now that I have it back mounted on the bird I am curious as to the oil going into the system. Even though I went through this long explanation, I only have a questions about the oil entering the PSRU. There is no reason to suspect any oiling issues caused the previous problem...I just like to share on occasion. However, last night when I was hooking up everything I decided to pour some oil directly into the in oil hole on top of the PSRU. My curiosity is that it just kinda set there and very slowly seemed to seep into the PSRU. Does oil pressure forced it into the PSRU, thus getting more oil in. I would think with everything spinning etc under power the oil flow etc would be much more dynamic, thus providing a more significant lubricating event. I don't really know what I was expecting. my oil flow seems good. It just got me thinking and wanting to have a better understanding. TIA All the best, Chris Houston, GSOT __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CAAE7F.A25305B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I once my gearbox freeze up as = well, Chris.

 

But, it was very clear the culprit = – I had the housing nickel plated and while I made it very clear to the = plating shop that the inner race of the bronze pressure bearing was to be = protected and not plated – well, I think you can guess what = happened.

 

It turns out this process produces = a light gold/tan color and when I visually examined the bearing it looked = fine.  Buttoned it back up and flew for 10 hours.  Went out one Cold =  morning to go to fly in and pulled the prop through as I  normally = did.  It felt a bit stiff, but it was a cold morning, so I hopped in threw =  a few switches and fire up the engine – it ran for approx 10 seconds before = dying.

 

Somewhat surprised (but, it was a = cold morning), I try to crank it again, all I got for my effort was a groan = from the engine and notice my volt meter go from 12.5 volts to approx 6 volts = – I immediately ceased my attempt to start the engine. Unbuckled and climbed out.  = Went to the prop and tried to pull it through and could barely budge it with considerable force.

 

Sent it to Tracy, and he found that = nickel plating had come lose from the bronze bearing and had basically packed = up the bearing and took up the clearance between   shaft and = bore.  Tracy bored = out the bronze bearing a few fraction of a thousands and it was good as = new.

 

You are right - the front bearing = does not rely on engine oil for lubrication but is permanently lubricated.  = The bronze bearing is pressure fed from the engine – mine gets approx = 80 PSI.  If you are in doubt about your PSRU engine fed lubrication, = take off the drain and hook up a hose to end (secure it well so it can’t = get into the prop and run the hose into a container).  Start your engine and = run it for approx 30 sec. shut it down and go measure the amount of oil in your container, you should find at least a pint.  With the old Ross = Redrive with a pressure restrictor I could get a pint in 60 = seconds.

 

OR if you feel comfortable with it = – don’t bother, I never checked it on Tracy’s drive but had on the Ross because I knew some units had marginal = lubrication – and that is the reason I ditched the Ross after about 160 hours the sun = gear start galling from lack of adequate lubrication.  With Tracy’s unit being fed full = engine oil pressure (no restrictor) I don’t have that concern.  But, if = for any reason you do have a question about your lubrication flow you could do = this check.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber
Sent: Monday, February = 15, 2010 2:34 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] PSRU = oiling question

 

I just received my PSRU = back from Tracy.  If I understand his explanation correctly my prop shaft bearing at the = end near the prop (pusher) bound up somehow.  He machined it, made other = needed adjustments (?) and sent it back to me very promptly...bout a week turn = around (of course I dropped a bit on overnight shipping to make sure he = got it before he was off again <g>).

 

The problem may have been due to = a couple of factors....not really sure, but I discovered it after my plane = was sitting out of the hangar due to roof repairs for about 6 or 7 = weeks.  When I went up to start it to taxi back to the hangar, I pulled the prop = through a few times by hand and all seemed fine.  I started it up, started, = was tickled, but it it stalled. Did I mention it was REALLY cold = for Houston...about 27 degrees.  I started it again and is sounded "labored" and = was running poorly.  It was about 1:00 am (I had just gotten off duty), = so I figured I call it a night.  I got out and turned the prop through = again and could barely turn the prop. Damn.  I thought I toasted another = engine. Damn.

 

A couple of days later a friend = and I pushed the plane back to the hangar and I walked away from the issue for = a couple of weeks. Went so far as to even looking at financing a Lyc <shudder>.  I distracted myself by doing some interior work = and wiring...actually got my radios far enough along to listen to ATIS = for a few minutes...on the bench.

 

Finally, two days after my recent = loss, I forced myself to the hangar and pulled the PSRU.  I had already = looked inside the exhaust ports and the chambers looked clean and smooth.  = I had also drained the oil, with a magnet (I know, some is aluminum) in the = drain filter and found it all to be perfectly clean.  Well, without the PSRU the engine turned perfectly making that sweet churning = sound through the open spark plug holes.

 

I turned to the PSRU.  = I took out each section slooooowly.  No signs of binding, chipping or any = other damage in each part....until I got to the last section, the sealed = section by the prop.  The prop hub would not turn.  I could barely turn = it with the prop on. Without the prop is was a no go.  So, I sent it to = Tracy.

 

ANYWAY, now that I have it back = mounted on the bird I am curious as to the oil going into the system.  = Even though I went through this long explanation, I only have a = questions about the oil entering the PSRU.  There is no reason to suspect any = oiling issues caused the previous problem...I just like to share on = occasion.  However, last night when I was hooking up everything I decided to = pour some oil directly into the in oil hole on top of the PSRU.  My curiosity is that it just kinda set there and very slowly seemed to = seep into the PSRU.  Does oil pressure forced it into the PSRU, thus = getting more oil in.  I would think with everything spinning etc under = power the oil flow etc would be much more dynamic, thus providing a more = significant lubricating event.  I don't really know what I was expecting.  = my oil flow seems good.  It just got me thinking and wanting to have a = better understanding.  TIA

 

All the = best,

 

Chris

=

Houston, = GSOT



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