X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4125945 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:24:39 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930CC17380D for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:23:59 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C89DBEC0E3 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:19:45 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <71721610C41845B0A1E63DD28EA8D1FF@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:19:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01CAAED8.6AE2D520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100215-1, 02/15/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CAAED8.6AE2D520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I can't see a response from Bill yet, but from my knowledge Powersport = is gone with all assets sold. I believe the products being developed are parts only and variations and = in some cases improvements on the Powersport products. I'm not saying = that there were anything wrong with the previous Powersport products, = but I think talking to Bill, they might be more generic in nature to = suit a broader range of 13B engines, no as previously, for the = Powersport - at least that's my feeling on things. The small Powersport = engine was almost unrecognizable as a Mazda rotary engine.=20 I'm with you on prices and I believe Bill is of the same opinion. I do = like the idea of straight cut gears and the pendulum type damper that = Bill spoke about - that's all been done before by many others for = different applications - no IP there. The brazed side housings have the = benefit of Steel wear surfaces and light weight housing - perfect in my = opinion. Not as light ( it would seem) as Al housings but without any of = the previous problems of Al housings. Again no IP ( intellectual = property) issues that I can see, using proven technology copying the = Mazda housings, I stand to be corrected though, this is just my opinion. George ( down under) Bill, I didn't mean to imply that Alan built the FWF stuff - I know that was = all Powersport. The entire airplane was a work of art with a completely = aluminum cowl with an annular inlet. They wouldn't make a claim for FWF = weight, but they did say the entire airplane was well under 700 pounds. = A typical RV-3 is in the 730 pound range. I met Alan and Everett at the Copperstate fly-in in the mid 90s and = talked their ears off. So what does this your effort mean for the current Powersport company? = Are they dead and gone? Should we anticipate some sort of legal battle = over IP issues? At the time that I talked with Alan and Everett they still were not = selling anything. The current owners of Powersport priced themselves out = of business (at least my business). For all of its warts, at least when = you pay 25K for a Lycosaur you know exactly what you are getting. A FWF = package such as the most recent Powersport, Eggenfellner, etc... that = costs as much as or more than the Lyc with relatively no track record is = a dead end in my book. If you guys can come out with the pieces-parts to duplicate that = original engine or a complete engine, without a price tag that breaks = the bank, I'd think you'll have a winner. If the end result is in the = same ballpark as a Lyc, I'd stick with my $3200 Turrentine built 13B. Mike From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:56 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings=20 Mike,=20 The original PowerSport RV-3 was piloted by Alan. All of the FWF = systems were built by Everett and Steve. That airplane was a test bed = for the "Superlite" engine, which used Mazda rotors and housings but was = so modified that you couldn't recognize anything. The plane had the = world record for time to climb for prop driven small displacement = aircraft for some time. That plane was a screamer, both literally and = figuratively. It had two straight pipes dumping at the stock cowl exit. = It would wake the dead. They had to brace the cockpit floor to prevent = trouble from the pulses loosening rivets. Need I say a good muffler is = in the works too? OK I am going to check with Steve to see when we might = be able to build some for the public. As to the side plates, you can = build them from aluminum, but there is another solution that PS tried. = They did a lightweight machined and welded steel end plate only about = 1-2 pounds heaver than the aluminum plate and nitrideable just like the = stocker. You would have to be running P-ports though as there was no = provision for side ports in these housings. Once I have some quotes on = the machining I'll give you some kind of price ideas. I'm modeling the = system and producing drawings for proper produceability. Bill=20 Bill, So do you have an estimate on when these might be available and at = what price? On a somewhat related note, anyone have any experience with any = aftermarket aluminum end/intermediate housings? I'd love to build an all = aluminum P-Port engine. The first rotary airplane I ever saw was the = original Powersport RV-3 that Alan Tolle built. That engine was all = aluminum and the airplane was so nice and light it was a rocket ship. = Sign me up! Mike Wills From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:44 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings=20 In a message dated 2/14/2010 7:40:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, = keltro@att.net writes: George, Do you have any contact info for the ex "Powersport" type PP = housings ??............. =20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 Kelly, Not to butt in but I am working with one of the original PowerSport = guys and we are going to work out the layouts so we can have the P-ports = done CNC. These P-ports are properly sealed, using o-rings, no goo, not = welded to the internal steel. Everett Hatch and Steve Beckham work this = out years ago and they don't leak. We plan to change just slightly from = the original design putting the butterfly outside of the port, but still = at the housing face to allow good throttle response. This needs to be = available to the guys running in aircraft. We want to make a safe and = robust system. Bill Jepson ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CAAED8.6AE2D520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Mike,
I can't see a response from Bill yet, but from my knowledge = Powersport is=20 gone with all assets sold.
I believe the products being developed are parts only and = variations and in=20 some cases improvements on the Powersport products. I'm not saying that = there=20 were anything wrong with the previous Powersport products, but I think = talking=20 to Bill, they might be more generic in nature to suit a broader range of = 13B=20 engines, no as previously, for the Powersport - at least that's my = feeling=20 on things.  The small Powersport engine was almost unrecognizable = as a=20 Mazda rotary engine. 
I'm with you on prices and I believe Bill is of the same opinion. I = do like=20 the idea of straight cut gears and the pendulum type damper that Bill = spoke=20 about - that's all been done before by many others for different = applications -=20 no IP there. The brazed side housings have the benefit of Steel wear = surfaces=20 and light weight housing - perfect in my opinion. Not as light ( it = would seem)=20 as Al housings but without any of the previous problems of Al housings. = Again no=20 IP ( intellectual property) issues that I can see, using proven = technology=20 copying the Mazda housings,
I stand to be corrected though, this is just my opinion.
George ( down under)
Bill,
 
I didn=92t mean to imply that Alan = built the FWF=20 stuff - I know that was all Powersport. The entire airplane was a work = of art=20 with a completely aluminum cowl with an annular inlet. They wouldn=92t = make a=20 claim for FWF weight, but they did say the entire airplane was well = under 700=20 pounds. A typical RV-3 is in the 730 pound range.
 
I met Alan and Everett at the = Copperstate=20 fly-in in the mid 90s and talked their ears off.
 
So what does this your effort = mean for the=20 current Powersport company? Are they dead and gone? Should we = anticipate some=20 sort of legal battle over IP issues?
 
At the time that I talked with Alan = and Everett=20 they still were not selling anything. The current owners of Powersport = priced=20 themselves out of business (at least my business). For all of its = warts, at=20 least when you pay 25K for a Lycosaur you know exactly what you are = getting. A=20 FWF package such as the most recent Powersport, Eggenfellner, etc... = that=20 costs as much as or more than the Lyc with relatively no track record = is a=20 dead end in my book.
 
If you guys can come out with the = pieces-parts=20 to duplicate that original engine or a complete engine, without a = price tag=20 that breaks the bank, I'd think you'll have a winner. If the end = result is in=20 the same ballpark as a Lyc, I'd stick with my $3200 Turrentine built=20 13B.
 
Mike

From: WRJJRS@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:56 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings

Mike,
The original PowerSport RV-3 was piloted by = Alan. All=20 of the FWF systems were built by Everett and Steve. That airplane was = a test=20 bed for the "Superlite" engine, which used Mazda rotors and housings = but was=20 so modified that you couldn't recognize anything. The plane had the = world=20 record for time to climb for prop driven small displacement aircraft = for some=20 time. That plane was a screamer, both literally and figuratively. = It had=20 two straight pipes dumping at the stock cowl exit. It would wake the = dead.=20 They had to brace the cockpit floor to prevent trouble from the pulses = loosening rivets. Need I say a good muffler is in the works = too? OK=20 I am going to check with Steve to see when we might be able to build = some for=20 the public. As to the side plates, you can build them from = aluminum, but=20 there is another solution that PS tried. They did = a lightweight=20 machined and welded steel end plate only about 1-2 pounds heaver = than the=20 aluminum plate and nitrideable just like the stocker. You would have = to be=20 running P-ports though as there was no provision for side ports in = these=20 housings. Once I have some quotes on the machining I'll give = you=20 some kind of price ideas. I'm modeling the system and producing = drawings for=20 proper produceability.
Bill 
Bill,
So do you have an estimate on = when these=20 might be available and at what price?
 
On a somewhat related note, = anyone have any=20 experience with any aftermarket aluminum end/intermediate housings? = I'd love=20 to build an all aluminum P-Port engine. The first rotary airplane I = ever saw=20 was the original Powersport RV-3 that Alan Tolle built. That engine = was all=20 aluminum and the airplane was so nice and light it was a rocket = ship. Sign=20 me up!
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:44 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings

In a message dated 2/14/2010 7:40:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, = keltro@att.net=20 writes:
George,
   Do you have any contact info for the=20 ex "Powersport" type PP housings = ??.............  
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20
Kelly,
Not to butt in but I am working with one of the original = PowerSport=20 guys and we are going to work out the layouts so we can have the = P-ports=20 done CNC. These P-ports are properly sealed, using o-rings, no goo, = not=20 welded to the internal steel. Everett Hatch and Steve Beckham work = this out=20 years ago and they don't leak. We plan to change just slightly from = the=20 original design putting the butterfly outside of the port, but still = at the=20 housing face to allow good throttle response. This needs to be = available to=20 the guys running in aircraft. We want to make a safe and robust=20 system.
Bill Jepson
 
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