X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from lrcmmta09-srv.windstream.net ([166.102.165.81] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4117724 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:08:20 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=166.102.165.81; envelope-from=montyr2157@windstream.net Return-Path: X-WS-COS: WSOB804 X-Cloudmark-Category: Undefined:Undefined X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=5Sd8aPw2GZIJnjeKQlIQIPutSX+3O+lxaFf7fii6OSk= c=1 sm=0 a=k2aKUeeUG-jOSNtgRpAA:9 a=4udsKz91To6dggaK3NcA:7 a=YWq5WI7JmLJR5QcWKctYR1BMQvsA:4 a=9ZbgWFmsPK-bhxZj:21 a=103h_ZnWRzuw1hJ6:21 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RsZ1lfCBmhM8PTDm_z8A:9 a=oAU_JtOSTlR8sScuz7EA:7 a=xyNm18DN8QfdqYBw-FjGK8HLbaoA:4 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=9R5fF6ldNMlKU9SPPpQVPQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 Authentication-Results: lrcmmta09 smtp.user=montyr2157; auth=pass (LOGIN) Received: from [98.20.181.245] ([98.20.181.245:61051] helo=newbox) by lrcmmta09 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.45 r()) with ESMTPA id D0/98-07226-E56917B4; Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:07:43 -0600 Message-ID: <75B793D44861457D8801C022716A6BC4@newbox> From: "MONTY ROBERTS" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: CAD program Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:07:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01CAA978.14B6E2A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01CAA978.14B6E2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can probably get by with the hobby version of Alibre. I think it is = around $250. I can't remember what all the restrictions are. I think you can make Alibre work if all you do is flat wrap developable = surfaces. If you are going to do sheet metal it will probably get you = where you want to go.=20 Alibre's big handicap is that it will not do conic sections. Conics are = THE foundation of all aircraft and boat lofting. Everything is also = sketch based. I don't really like sketches. I blame Pro E for everybody = going to sketches. Even the once great Unigraphics has succumbed to the = dark side. A pox upon the geek who invented sketching! Constraint based = sketching is really good for mechanical parts and mechanisms. Or = something where you have a family of parts that may need changing. It is = too limiting for free form parts. I will at least give Alibre credit for = not requiring all sketches to be fully constrained. That can drive you = crazy. Of course not having them fully constrained means you = occasionally have one blow up. You'll see what I mean.=20 Get the demo version and play around with it. I think you can do the = same with Rhino. Try before you buy. I think you can get the student version of Rhino for $200. That is a = fantastic deal. Even $900 is not bad. Trust me, it will save you that = much in headaches if you are designing an airplane. Especially if it is = sheet metal. You can unwrap all your surfaces and plot out flat = patterns. Or better yet send a .dxf file to the waterjet guy to cut your = skins out with the holes all pre punched just like one of van's = airplanes. You can have somebody with a CNC router make up all your form = blocks for the ribs and bulkheads too. If your cad file is perfect, the = parts will be. They will go together just like a quick build kit. How = much is that worth to you? After that you can make as many as you want, = over and over and over. I look at it and say you can't afford not to = have a cad program.=20 Classroom vs tutorials is a personal thing. I've always been good at the = tutorials. But I've been doing cad for so long that I can pick up just = about any program and be doing work in an hour. If you don't have the = basics a class is a good Idea. You aren't going to get conic lofting = skills from a basic tech school though. You could go to one of the = seminars that Rhino puts on from time to time after you have the basics = down. In the end the only real way to learn is by doing. In the = beginning there is going to be a lot of pounding your head against the = monitor. That's just the way it is. When you get to the point you know = it is the software's fault not yours, you will have arrived. Some folks = have a natural ability for this and others don't. You will know within a = couple weeks which camp you are in, especially if you take a class. You = may hate working in cad, some people do. You may also find it addictive. = Just a warning. I could show you most of what you need to know in an afternoon if you = had the basics down. You could use the Bruce King method for a one off. Google BK flyer. He = uses cad to lay out the bulkheads, but then makes poster board patterns = for the skins. You just have to decide which way you prefer to work. One word of advice in Rhino.....Planar.=20 Monty =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Wills=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: CAD program Thanks Monty. Alibre was the tool I was thinking of. Never seen Rhino = but I will take a look. Building an airplane is sort of an excuse to = learn the tool. I suspect that I could design/build what I want without = it. But it might help me visualize the end result before I go to far = down the wrong path. Clearly I'm not going to invest huge $ in a cad = package to build a one off. Mike ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01CAA978.14B6E2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You can probably get by with the hobby = version of=20 Alibre. I think it is around $250. I can't remember what all the = restrictions=20 are.
 
I think you can make Alibre work if all = you do is=20 flat wrap developable surfaces. If you are going to do sheet metal it = will=20 probably get you where you want to go.
 
Alibre's big handicap is that it will = not do conic=20 sections. Conics are THE foundation of all aircraft and boat = lofting.=20 Everything is also sketch based. I don't really like sketches. I blame = Pro E for=20 everybody going to sketches. Even the once great Unigraphics = has succumbed=20 to the dark side. A pox upon the geek who invented=20 sketching! Constraint based sketching is really good for mechanical = parts=20 and mechanisms. Or something where you have a family of parts that may = need=20 changing. It is too limiting for free form parts. I will at least give = Alibre=20 credit for not requiring all sketches to be fully constrained. That can = drive=20 you crazy. Of course not having them fully constrained means you = occasionally=20 have one blow up. You'll see what I mean.
 
Get the demo version and play around = with it.=20 I  think you can do the same with Rhino. Try before you = buy.
 
I think you can get the student version = of Rhino=20 for $200. That is a fantastic deal. Even $900 is not bad. Trust me, it = will save=20 you that much in headaches if you are designing an airplane. Especially = if it is=20 sheet metal. You can unwrap all your surfaces and plot out flat = patterns. Or=20 better yet send a .dxf file to the waterjet guy to cut your skins out = with the=20 holes all pre punched just like one of van's airplanes. You can have = somebody=20 with a CNC router make up all your form blocks for the ribs and=20 bulkheads too. If your cad file is perfect, the parts will be. They = will go=20 together just like a quick build kit. How much is that worth to you? = After that=20 you can make as many as you want, over and over and over. I look at it = and say=20 you can't afford not to have a cad program.
 
Classroom vs tutorials is a personal = thing. I've=20 always been good at the tutorials. But I've been doing cad for so = long that=20 I can pick up just about any program and be doing work in an hour. If = you don't=20 have the basics a class is a good Idea. You aren't going to get conic = lofting=20 skills from a basic tech school though. You could go to one of the = seminars that=20 Rhino puts on from time to time after you have the basics down. In = the=20 end the only real way to learn is by doing. In the beginning there = is going=20 to be a lot of pounding your head against the monitor. That's just the = way it=20 is. When you get to the point you know it is the software's fault not = yours, you=20 will have arrived. Some folks have a natural ability for this and others = don't.=20 You will know within a couple weeks which camp you are in, especially if = you=20 take a class. You may hate working in cad, some = people do. You=20 may also find it addictive. Just a warning.
 
I could show you most of what you need = to know in=20 an afternoon if you had the basics down.
 
You could use the Bruce King method for = a one off.=20 Google BK flyer. He uses cad to lay out the bulkheads, but then = makes=20 poster board patterns for the skins. You just have to decide which way = you=20 prefer to work.
 
One word of advice in Rhino.....Planar. =
 
Monty  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike = Wills
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 = 9:15=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: CAD=20 program

Thanks Monty. Alibre was the tool I was = thinking of.=20 Never seen Rhino but I will take a look. Building an airplane is sort = of an=20 excuse to learn the tool. I suspect that I could design/build what I = want=20 without it. But it might help me visualize the end result before I go = to far=20 down the wrong path. Clearly I'm not going to invest huge $ in a cad = package=20 to build a one off.
 
Mike

 
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