X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rc1-smtp.comporium.net ([208.104.2.18] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.1) with ESMTP id 4084616 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:37:24 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.104.2.18; envelope-from=jewen@comporium.net Received: from rg4.comporium.net ([208.104.2.24]) by rc1-smtp.comporium.net ({6ef86d1c-fcb7-4b71-ab61-5707d6041926}) via TCP (outbound) with ESMTP id 20100116033633747 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:36:33 -0500 X-RC-FROM: X-RC-RCPT: Received: from 67-197-214-136.ln.dyn.cm.comporium.net (HELO home01) ([67.197.214.136]) by rg4.comporium.net (MOS 3.10.7-GA FastPath queued) with SMTP id CDV24668; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:36:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001e01ca965d$3a84ff40$6405a8c0@home01> From: "Joe Ewen" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternator Filter Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:37:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01CA9633.51999A80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1933 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1933 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01CA9633.51999A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, What part of CA are you in? How far from Glendale? I have to visit a = customer in Glendale the second week of February. I would love to stop = by and meet you, see your machine etc. If you do not mind and are a = reasonable distance from Glendale. Joe ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 7:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternator Filter Joe; Gees, that's a weird one. I assume from your note that problem is no ignition trigger pulse, and = that the injectors are firing. Have you determined where the signal is = being interrupted? Is the loss of signal from the CAS, or out of the = EC2? The capacitor grounded to the engine will be inducing some sort of = opposite signal to ground - maybe affecting the CAS? Just some WAG. I have no filter on the alternator output - never saw more than the = normal ripple there. Could a failed diode in the output converter be = making big spikes? Wait - even with alt off, no start? What's in the = 'alt filter' besides a capacitor? Is the filter in the circuit when you = run the external wire? Just a few random thoughts - I expect you know more than I about how = this stuff works. Al G -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Joe Ewen Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 3:13 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Alternator Filter I have been having problems with my engine installation. Starts, runs = great - turn on the alternator and the engine starts to miss. Put a = scope on R1 ignition trigger lead and sure enough missing trigger = pulses. Turn alternator off no more missing pulses. Looked at the = alternator output with the scope and as expected saw some spikes. = Bought an aircraft spruce alternator filter. Ran the engine , worked = fine until it would not prime or run any more. That turned out to be a = defective store switch. Replaced the switch and back to normal. Here = is the part I do not yet understand. Engine runs fine, added alternator filter and can not even get a pop. = Take the filter off, starts fine. Filter back on (alt off), no joy. = Filter on (alt on), no joy. Filter off, runs fine. I can not imagine = how a filter capacitor is interfering with the ignition of the = controller. If anyone has any insight please feel to speak up. I have 2 wiring ducts: 1. quiet - signals such as to the PCM, ignition = firing leads, low voltage sensor, analog signals. 2. Noisy side, = battery cables, ignition power, injector power and signal (twisted pair = shielded (shield properly grounded.) Alternator connects to battery cable at the starter. If I run an = external wire between the alternator and the battery (outside the = airframe, long wire - engine in back, battery in front (canard)) = everything runs fine.) Aesthetically this might not be a good approach, = not to mention the aerodynamic impact. This problem has kicked my butt this week working on it in the cool = 20F evening air. Any insight is appreciated, especially why a capacitor = (which does not conduct DC) would render the EC2 controller inoperative = would be appreciated. Thanks, Joe ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01CA9633.51999A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
What part of CA are you in?  How = far from=20 Glendale?  I have to visit a customer in Glendale the second week = of=20 February.  I would love to stop by and meet you, see your machine=20 etc.  If you do not mind and are a reasonable distance from=20 Glendale.
 
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 = 7:33=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Alternator=20 Filter

Joe;

Gees, = that=92s a=20 weird one.

I assume = from your=20 note that problem is no ignition trigger pulse, and that the injectors = are=20 firing.  Have you determined where the signal is being = interrupted? =20 Is the loss of signal from the CAS, or out = of the=20 EC2?  The capacitor grounded to the engine will be inducing some = sort of=20 opposite signal to ground =96 maybe affecting the CAS?  = Just some=20 WAG.

 

I have no = filter on=20 the alternator output =96 never saw more than the normal ripple there. = Could a=20 failed diode in the output converter be making big spikes? Wait =96 = even with=20 alt off, no start? What=92s in the =91alt filter=92 besides a = capacitor? Is the=20 filter in the circuit when you run the external = wire?

 

Just a = few random=20 thoughts =96 I expect you know more than I about how this stuff=20 works.

 

Al=20 G

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Joe = Ewen
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 = 3:13=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Alternator Filter

 

I have been having = problems with=20 my engine installation.  Starts, runs great - turn on the = alternator and=20 the engine starts to miss.  Put a scope on R1 ignition trigger = lead and=20 sure enough missing trigger pulses.   Turn alternator off no = more=20 missing pulses.  Looked at the alternator output with the scope = and as=20 expected saw some spikes.  Bought an aircraft spruce alternator=20 filter.  Ran the engine , worked fine until it would not prime or = run any=20 more.  That turned out to be a defective store switch.  = Replaced the=20 switch and back to normal.  Here is the part I do not yet=20 understand.

 

Engine runs fine, added = alternator=20 filter and can not even get a pop.  Take the filter off, starts=20 fine.  Filter back on (alt off), no joy.  Filter on (alt = on), no=20 joy. Filter off, runs fine.  I can not imagine how a filter=20 capacitor is interfering with the ignition of the controller.  If = anyone=20 has any insight please feel to speak up.

 

I have 2 wiring ducts: = 1. quiet -=20 signals such as to the PCM, ignition firing leads, low voltage sensor, = analog=20 signals.  2. Noisy side, battery cables, ignition power, injector = power=20 and signal (twisted pair shielded (shield properly=20 grounded.)

 

Alternator connects to = battery=20 cable at the starter.  If I run an external wire between the = alternator=20 and the battery (outside the airframe, long wire - engine in back, = battery in=20 front (canard)) everything runs fine.) Aesthetically this might = not be a=20 good approach, not to mention the aerodynamic = impact.

 

This problem has kicked = my butt=20 this week working on it in the cool 20F evening air.  Any insight = is=20 appreciated, especially why a capacitor (which does not conduct DC) = would=20 render the EC2 controller inoperative would be=20 appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Joe

 

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