X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost04.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.0) with ESMTP id 4070485 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:11:57 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.104; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-157-211-165.mco.bellsouth.net[70.157.211.165]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc04) with SMTP id <20100109171118H040010nfqe>; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 17:11:19 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [70.157.211.165] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:11:24 -0500 Message-ID: <0B377D4AD227417B9D74E7A2060BD7DC@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01CA9124.DD76EFD0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcqRMnH4B35VEKKwTtSfkwHAHxy/UgAGjFaA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CA9124.DD76EFD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff, The 240 max operating temp is for the water. I can not find anything for the oil temp. When the oil temp is 100 degrees C, at 3000 RPM, you should see an oil pressure of 50.8 PSI. Also an interesting spec is that with a dry engine, it requires 6.1 qts of oil to fill it. An oil change with filter requires 3.7 qts. A considerable amount of oil will remain trapped inside the engine on changes. My assumption is that when the oil temp gets too high, the water temp will also go too high, (above 240) and you will get an indication on the dash. I have not found an oil temp spec listed anywhere. Fuel pressure spec for the Renesis is much higher than any of us are running.54 to 65 PSI! This may cause us to run our injectors at a higher duty cycle than they are designed for (80%?) Might also affect the atomization of the fuel?? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 8:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Bill, I'm not sure about the Renesis but the 13B comes stock with a temperature probe and a low-oil sensor in the oil pan - perhaps at that point 240F is max temp., as it's going to higher than the 210 maximum return. There is also a temperature probe in the water pump housing. Jeff _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 5:40 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe No, that is great, Mark. BUT I didn't ask the question correctly. There has been a lot of discussion on the list about temperature red lines. Searching thru the Mazda stuff I have, I found that the normal operating temperature of the Renesis tops out at 240 degrees..much higher than most or all of us use for our personal red line. The jpeg from Jeff caused me to try and find the normal operating temperature spec for the oil on the Renesis. I couldn't find one and then after looking at the drawing again, I don't see a temperature sensor in the oil system for the car. The only sensor I could find was the thermostat in the cooler that will bypass the cooler when it is cold. Nothing seems to be indicated if the oil is hot. Only if the water is hot. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:32 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Bill, Since you didn't direct your question to any specific person, I'll tell you how I set up my engine monitoring system up. I measure temp and pressure of both the oil and water. I also measure water level (float switch in the purge tank) as well as the return water temp back into the engine (after the radiator). So, from this I can tell how well my exchangers are working. As an example, I normally see a 40* delta-T across the oil cooler. If this drops, my temps go up and I need to land and find out what's not right. I also measure coolant pressure. If pressure is low / high, I need to investigate. Is this information overload? Maybe, but I would rather have too much data than not enough. Mark S. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Am I correct in my assumption that the engine only has an oil pressure sensor and not an oil temperature sensor? Is the only engine temperature monitored by the coolant temperature sensor??? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Ben, you're right in that any one probe does not tell the whole story, but specific to the Rotary if only one probe is provided/available then the input oil temperature is most important. The oil flow diagrams show return oil from cooler is pumped through e-shaft and sprayed inside the rotors for their cooling. Previous posts and literature state that the rotor oil seals will be damaged by sustained oil temperature >210F. It is also important to use similar instrumentation to other builders for direct comparison from one installation to the next . I only measure return oil temperature myself; I'd be interested to know what delta T's (oil) other builders are seeing. Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of ben haas Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe I respectivly disagree on the oil temp sender location. One can have a very efficient oil cooler that removes alot of heat from the oil. Oil 'in' temps are important but,,,, You could possibly have a motor making alot of oil heat and slowing cooking the motor over time and not really know it. Just like with the water temp probe. One needs to know exactly what is happening in the motor in real time... YMMV. Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com _____ To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:18:39 -0600 From: msteitle@gmail.com Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Kevin, I think you want to measure the temp of the coolant as it exits the engine. That way you know how close you are to your upper operating limit. If you have a second input, you can measure the temps after the radiator. Oil temps are just the opposite... measure temps after oil has been through the cooler and is entering the engine. Mark S. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:52 AM, kevin lane wrote: in looking for a place to mount a water temp probe I realized my radiator has a drain plug fitting on the bottom of one of the end tanks that could work. that portion of the tank has cooled water about to return to the pump. does it matter if I monitor the before or after radiator temps? the engine sees both, right? same question as to the oil temp probe. the stock oil cooler has a large fitting [plug?] underneath of one end tank, not sure of its usage. also have an extra plug in the oil pan [out the side] which might work [?] told that originally had a oil level sender unit in there. kevin _____ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now. This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CA9124.DD76EFD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff,

The 240 max operating temp is for the water.  I can not = find anything for the oil temp.  When the oil temp is 100 degrees C, at = 3000 RPM, you should see an oil pressure of 50.8 PSI.  Also an = interesting spec is that with a dry engine, it requires 6.1 qts of oil to fill it.  = An oil change with filter requires 3.7 qts.  A considerable amount of oil = will remain trapped inside the engine on = changes.

My assumption is that when the oil temp gets too high, the water = temp will also go too high, (above 240) and you will get an indication on the = dash.  I have not found an oil temp spec listed = anywhere.

 

Fuel pressure spec for the Renesis is much higher than any of us = are running…54 to 65 PSI!  This may cause us to run our injectors = at a higher duty cycle than they are designed for (80%?)  Might also = affect the atomization of the fuel??

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley
Sent: Saturday, January = 09, 2010 8:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

Bill, I'm not sure about the = Renesis but the 13B comes stock with a temperature probe and a low-oil sensor in the = oil pan - perhaps at that point 240F is max temp., as it's going to higher = than the 210 maximum return.  There is also a temperature probe in the = water pump housing.

Jeff

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry = [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 5:40 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

No, that is great, Mark.

BUT I didn’t ask the question correctly.  There has = been a lot of discussion on the list about temperature red lines.  = Searching thru the Mazda stuff I have, I found that the normal operating temperature of = the Renesis tops out at 240 degrees….much higher than most or all of = us use for our personal red line.

The jpeg from Jeff caused me to try and find the normal = operating temperature spec for the oil on the Renesis.  I couldn’t find = one and then after looking at the drawing again, I don’t see a = temperature sensor in the oil system for the car.  The  only sensor I = could find was the thermostat in the cooler that will bypass the cooler when it is cold.  Nothing seems to be indicated if the oil is hot.  Only = if the water is hot.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 4:32 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

Bill,

Since you didn't direct your question to any specific person, = I'll tell you how I set up my engine monitoring system up.  I measure temp = and pressure of both the oil and water.  I also measure water level = (float switch in the purge tank) as well as the return water temp = back into the engine (after the radiator).  So, from this I can tell how well = my exchangers are working.  As an example, I normally see a = 40* delta-T across the oil cooler.  If this drops, my temps go up and I need to = land and find out what's not right.  I also measure coolant pressure.  If pressure is low / high, I need to investigate. 

 

Is this information overload?  Maybe, but I would rather = have too much data than not enough.

 

Mark S.

 

 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

Am I correct in my assumption that the engine only has an oil = pressure sensor and not an oil temperature sensor?  Is the only engine = temperature monitored by the coolant temperature = sensor??? 

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 1:04 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

Ben, = you’re right in that any one probe does not tell the whole story, but specific to the = Rotary if only one probe is provided/available then the input oil temperature = is most important.  The oil flow diagrams show return oil from cooler is = pumped through e-shaft and sprayed inside the rotors for their cooling.  = Previous posts and literature state that the rotor oil seals will be damaged by sustained oil temperature >210F.

It is also = important to use similar instrumentation to other builders for direct comparison = from one installation to the next …

I only = measure return oil temperature myself; I’d be interested to know what = delta T’s (oil) other builders are seeing.

Jeff<= /font>

 

 

I respectivly disagree on the oil temp sender = location. One can have a very efficient oil cooler that removes alot of heat from = the oil. Oil  'in' temps are important but,,,, You could possibly have = a motor making alot of oil heat and slowing cooking the motor over time and not = really know it. Just like with the water temp probe. One needs to know exactly = what is happening in the motor in real time...  YMMV.

Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com



 

To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:18:39 -0600
From: msteitle@gmail.com
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe

Kevin,

 

I think you want to measure the temp of = the coolant as it exits the engine.  That way you know how close = you are to your upper operating limit.  If you have a second input, you can measure the temps after the radiator.

 

Oil temps are just the opposite... measure temps = after oil has been through the cooler and is entering the = engine.

 

Mark S.  =

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:52 AM, kevin lane <n3773@comcast.net> wrote:

in looking for a place to mount a = water temp probe I realized my radiator has a drain plug fitting on the bottom = of one of the end tanks that could work.  that portion of the tank has = cooled water about to return to the pump.   does it matter if I = monitor the before or after radiator temps?  the engine sees both, right?   

same question as to the oil temp probe.  the stock oil cooler has a large fitting = [plug?] underneath of one end tank, not sure of its usage.  also have an extra plug in = the oil pan [out the side] which might work [?]  told that originally = had a oil level sender unit in there.   kevin  =

 

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by = Microsoft. Get it now.


This message, and the documents attached = hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you = have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we = may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.

 


This message, and the documents attached = hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you = have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we = may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.

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