X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.0) with ESMTP id 4070366 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:06:45 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=OMPgev8T_d0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=Hl1Gy0H5AAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=IpslU4ztAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=hG1ilDDYAAAA:8 a=gekUPb64FZtrvBBrftMA:9 a=LYcCI0FRBt64RXZfSmoA:7 a=9zmv7QheEYr80YcZprC3QyHQHekA:4 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=cr0eg9oN50EA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=QrJF1pA1cz_rvpse:21 a=VSVUacQoe1NvR22V:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=Rlgwkn1SOgHP6OhW4eUA:9 a=JgyMegm_vFg04Pcqj_gA:7 a=B4WmWkitLrtht0YTWhtUFcQ9mrUA:4 a=ebF1ALq2tYbTvlCs:21 a=8RtyldrNsV6k35V0:21 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.191.186.236 Received: from [75.191.186.236] ([75.191.186.236:2609] helo=computername) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 3E/4E-19543-05D884B4; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 14:06:09 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" Message-ID: <3E.4E.19543.05D884B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 09:06:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0064_01CA910A.FDC2E830" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcqQ0jDQiuRWJKJySnCr+aGFiD5zRwAYk9tQ This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01CA910A.FDC2E830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tracy, I think George was actually referring to the delta T of the air flow through the "water" and "oil" heat exchangers and not the delta T of the liquids themselves. As you point out - due to both the much higher mass flow and Specific Heat of the liquids, the delta T of the liquids can be much less to transfer the same amount of heat. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:19 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe 40 deg oil temp delta is typical if you oil cooler is working right. Water temp delta is WAY less than that. Mass flow is much higher and the specific heat of the fluid is much higher. Tracy On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 6:37 PM, George Lendich wrote: Mark, That is a great monitoring system, I would like to do the same thing as you have done one day. I'm not sure about how good the 40* delta-T is, I will let someone else comment of that, maybe Ed A. as he mentioned 80-100*F Delta -T for water, perhaps oil is half of that . George ( down under) Bill, Since you didn't direct your question to any specific person, I'll tell you how I set up my engine monitoring system up. I measure temp and pressure of both the oil and water. I also measure water level (float switch in the purge tank) as well as the return water temp back into the engine (after the radiator). So, from this I can tell how well my exchangers are working. As an example, I normally see a 40* delta-T across the oil cooler. If this drops, my temps go up and I need to land and find out what's not right. I also measure coolant pressure. If pressure is low / high, I need to investigate. Is this information overload? Maybe, but I would rather have too much data than not enough. Mark S. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Am I correct in my assumption that the engine only has an oil pressure sensor and not an oil temperature sensor? Is the only engine temperature monitored by the coolant temperature sensor??? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Ben, you're right in that any one probe does not tell the whole story, but specific to the Rotary if only one probe is provided/available then the input oil temperature is most important. The oil flow diagrams show return oil from cooler is pumped through e-shaft and sprayed inside the rotors for their cooling. Previous posts and literature state that the rotor oil seals will be damaged by sustained oil temperature >210F. It is also important to use similar instrumentation to other builders for direct comparison from one installation to the next . I only measure return oil temperature myself; I'd be interested to know what delta T's (oil) other builders are seeing. Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of ben haas Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe I respectivly disagree on the oil temp sender location. One can have a very efficient oil cooler that removes alot of heat from the oil. Oil 'in' temps are important but,,,, You could possibly have a motor making alot of oil heat and slowing cooking the motor over time and not really know it. Just like with the water temp probe. One needs to know exactly what is happening in the motor in real time... YMMV. Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com _____ To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:18:39 -0600 From: msteitle@gmail.com Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Kevin, I think you want to measure the temp of the coolant as it exits the engine. That way you know how close you are to your upper operating limit. If you have a second input, you can measure the temps after the radiator. Oil temps are just the opposite... measure temps after oil has been through the cooler and is entering the engine. Mark S. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:52 AM, kevin lane wrote: in looking for a place to mount a water temp probe I realized my radiator has a drain plug fitting on the bottom of one of the end tanks that could work. that portion of the tank has cooled water about to return to the pump. does it matter if I monitor the before or after radiator temps? the engine sees both, right? same question as to the oil temp probe. the stock oil cooler has a large fitting [plug?] underneath of one end tank, not sure of its usage. also have an extra plug in the oil pan [out the side] which might work [?] told that originally had a oil level sender unit in there. kevin _____ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now. This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01CA910A.FDC2E830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Tracy,

 

I think George was actually = referring to the delta T of the air flow through the “water” and = “oil” heat exchangers and not the delta T of the liquids themselves.  As you point out - due = to both the much higher mass flow and Specific Heat of the liquids, the delta T of = the liquids can be much less to transfer the same amount of = heat.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 9:19 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

 

40 deg oil = temp delta is typical if you oil cooler is working right.   Water temp delta is = WAY less than that.  Mass flow  is much higher and the specific heat of = the fluid is much higher.

Tracy  =

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 6:37 PM, George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au> = wrote:

Mark,

That is a great monitoring system, I would like to do = the same thing as you have done one day.  I'm not sure about how good = the 40* delta-T is, I will let someone else comment of that, maybe Ed A.  = as he  mentioned 80-100*F Delta -T for water, perhaps oil is half of = that .

George ( down under)

Bill,

Since you didn't direct your question to any specific person, = I'll tell you how I set up my engine monitoring system up.  I measure temp = and pressure of both the oil and water.  I also measure water level = (float switch in the purge tank) as well as the return water temp = back into the engine (after the radiator).  So, from this I can tell how well = my exchangers are working.  As an example, I normally see a = 40* delta-T across the oil cooler.  If this drops, my temps go up and I need to = land and find out what's not right.  I also measure coolant pressure.  If pressure is low / high, I need = to investigate. 

 

Is this information overload?  Maybe, but I would rather = have too much data than not enough.

 

Mark S.

 

 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Am I = correct in my assumption that the engine only has an oil pressure sensor and not an = oil temperature sensor?  Is the only engine temperature monitored by = the coolant temperature sensor??? 

 

Bill = B

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff = Whaley
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 1:04 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

Ben, you’re right in that any one probe = does not tell the whole story, but specific to the Rotary if only one probe is provided/available then the input oil temperature is most = important.  The oil flow diagrams show return oil from cooler is pumped through e-shaft = and sprayed inside the rotors for their cooling.  Previous posts and literature state that the rotor oil seals will be damaged by sustained = oil temperature >210F.

It is also important to use similar = instrumentation to other builders for direct comparison from one installation to the next = …

I only measure return oil temperature myself; = I’d be interested to know what delta T’s (oil) other builders are = seeing.

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of ben haas
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 9:17 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

 

I respectivly disagree on the oil temp sender location. One can have a = very efficient oil cooler that removes alot of heat from the oil. Oil  = 'in' temps are important but,,,, You could possibly have a motor making alot = of oil heat and slowing cooking the motor over time and not really know it. = Just like with the water temp probe. One needs to know exactly what is happening = in the motor in real time...  YMMV.

Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com



 

To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:18:39 -0600
From: msteitle@gmail.com
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe

Kevin, =

 

I think you want to measure the temp of the coolant as it exits the engine.  That way you know how close you are to your upper = operating limit.  If you have a second input, you can measure the temps after = the radiator.

 

Oil temps are just the opposite... measure temps after oil has been through = the cooler and is entering the engine.

 

Mark S. 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:52 AM, kevin lane <n3773@comcast.net> = wrote:

in looking for a place to mount a water temp probe I realized my radiator = has a drain plug fitting on the bottom of one of the end tanks that could = work.  that portion of the tank has cooled water about to return to the pump.   does it matter if I monitor the before or after = radiator temps?  the engine sees both, right?    =

same question as to the oil temp probe.  the stock oil cooler = has a large fitting [plug?] underneath of one end tank, not sure of its = usage.  also have an extra plug in the oil pan [out the side] which might work [?]  told that originally had a oil level sender unit in there.   kevin 

 

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.


This message, and the documents attached = hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you = have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we = may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.

 

 

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