X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.0) with ESMTP id 4070341 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:02:35 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=OMPgev8T_d0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=IpslU4ztAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=hG1ilDDYAAAA:8 a=u0DvNKyN5n7CEoZaVWQA:9 a=lG4k7FX6U2QUutVr-dcA:7 a=67IrgVzz-8qv4vSE5kPuooxGkv4A:4 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=cr0eg9oN50EA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=5oqUOWuHftKwNIuu:21 a=Dgy9XLaAeEZq8eb2:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=oZkCV22DTfWuCf48kX8A:9 a=3oqvsuKFVujpSn_WzskA:7 a=75NOYWkRZeSa4X-0hFSi22bHHVcA:4 a=OXTs9mJc3Tu2l93w:21 a=R5A-62Xqn1TBrUjf:21 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.191.186.236 Received: from [75.191.186.236] ([75.191.186.236:2607] helo=computername) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id F9/52-19578-55C884B4; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 14:01:58 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" Message-ID: To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 09:02:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01CA910A.684FEF50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcqQu6hHVK6DMnvqRumSOnVDsxaizgAb9/nQ This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01CA910A.684FEF50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George, The DT is, of course, the amount of temperature rise you get in your cooling air due to heat transfer from you heat exchanger. Recall Q = m * DT * Cp - so a 40F DT simply means you must have more m (air mass flow) than if the DT were 100F. Since air mass flow = Velocity of air * Area (Frontal area of core in this case) That would generally mean you either need a radiator with a larger frontal area and/or your velocity of your cooling air would need to be higher to get the greater air mass flow needed due to a lower DT. That could add to your cooling drag due to the higher air velocity, but so long as the heat Q being removed is adequate, the engine doesn't care what combination of m and DT . I have seen DT of 100F reported for the radiators by several, but I don't recall off the top of my head DT for the oil cooler. Perhaps somebody who has measured theirs will report it. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 6:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Mark, That is a great monitoring system, I would like to do the same thing as you have done one day. I'm not sure about how good the 40* delta-T is, I will let someone else comment of that, maybe Ed A. as he mentioned 80-100*F Delta -T for water, perhaps oil is half of that . George ( down under) Bill, Since you didn't direct your question to any specific person, I'll tell you how I set up my engine monitoring system up. I measure temp and pressure of both the oil and water. I also measure water level (float switch in the purge tank) as well as the return water temp back into the engine (after the radiator). So, from this I can tell how well my exchangers are working. As an example, I normally see a 40* delta-T across the oil cooler. If this drops, my temps go up and I need to land and find out what's not right. I also measure coolant pressure. If pressure is low / high, I need to investigate. Is this information overload? Maybe, but I would rather have too much data than not enough. Mark S. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Am I correct in my assumption that the engine only has an oil pressure sensor and not an oil temperature sensor? Is the only engine temperature monitored by the coolant temperature sensor??? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Ben, you're right in that any one probe does not tell the whole story, but specific to the Rotary if only one probe is provided/available then the input oil temperature is most important. The oil flow diagrams show return oil from cooler is pumped through e-shaft and sprayed inside the rotors for their cooling. Previous posts and literature state that the rotor oil seals will be damaged by sustained oil temperature >210F. It is also important to use similar instrumentation to other builders for direct comparison from one installation to the next . I only measure return oil temperature myself; I'd be interested to know what delta T's (oil) other builders are seeing. Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of ben haas Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe I respectivly disagree on the oil temp sender location. One can have a very efficient oil cooler that removes alot of heat from the oil. Oil 'in' temps are important but,,,, You could possibly have a motor making alot of oil heat and slowing cooking the motor over time and not really know it. Just like with the water temp probe. One needs to know exactly what is happening in the motor in real time... YMMV. Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com _____ To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:18:39 -0600 From: msteitle@gmail.com Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe Kevin, I think you want to measure the temp of the coolant as it exits the engine. That way you know how close you are to your upper operating limit. If you have a second input, you can measure the temps after the radiator. Oil temps are just the opposite... measure temps after oil has been through the cooler and is entering the engine. Mark S. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:52 AM, kevin lane wrote: in looking for a place to mount a water temp probe I realized my radiator has a drain plug fitting on the bottom of one of the end tanks that could work. that portion of the tank has cooled water about to return to the pump. does it matter if I monitor the before or after radiator temps? the engine sees both, right? same question as to the oil temp probe. the stock oil cooler has a large fitting [plug?] underneath of one end tank, not sure of its usage. also have an extra plug in the oil pan [out the side] which might work [?] told that originally had a oil level sender unit in there. kevin _____ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now. This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01CA910A.684FEF50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = George,

 

The DT is, of course, = the amount of temperature rise you get in your cooling air due to heat = transfer from you heat exchanger.  Recall  Q =3D m * DT * Cp - so a 40F DT simply means you must have more m (air mass flow) than if the DT were 100F.  Since air mass flow =3D Velocity of air * Area (Frontal area = of core in this case)  That would generally mean you either need a radiator = with a larger frontal  area  and/or your velocity of your cooling air = would need to be higher to get the greater air mass flow needed due to a lower = DT.  That = could add to your cooling drag due to the higher air velocity, but so long as the = heat Q being removed is adequate, the engine doesn’t care  what = combination of m and DT = .

 

I have seen DT of 100F = reported for the radiators by several, but I don’t recall off the top of my = head  DT for the oil = cooler.  Perhaps somebody who has measured theirs will report = it.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 6:37 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

 

Mark,

That is a great monitoring system, I would like to do = the same thing as you have done one day.  I'm not sure about how good = the 40* delta-T is, I will let someone else comment of that, maybe Ed A.  = as he  mentioned 80-100*F Delta -T for water, perhaps oil is half of = that .

George ( down under)

Bill,

Since you didn't direct your question to any specific person, = I'll tell you how I set up my engine monitoring system up.  I measure temp = and pressure of both the oil and water.  I also measure water level = (float switch in the purge tank) as well as the return water temp = back into the engine (after the radiator).  So, from this I can tell how well = my exchangers are working.  As an example, I normally see a = 40* delta-T across the oil cooler.  If this drops, my temps go up and I need to = land and find out what's not right.  I also measure coolant pressure.  If pressure is low / high, I need to investigate. 

 

Is this information overload?  Maybe, but I would rather = have too much data than not enough.

 

Mark S.

 

 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

Am I = correct in my assumption that the engine only has an oil pressure sensor and not an = oil temperature sensor?  Is the only engine temperature monitored by = the coolant temperature sensor??? 

 

Bill = B

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff = Whaley
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 1:04 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

Ben, you’re right in that any one probe = does not tell the whole story, but specific to the Rotary if only one probe is provided/available then the input oil temperature is most = important.  The oil flow diagrams show return oil from cooler is pumped through e-shaft = and sprayed inside the rotors for their cooling.  Previous posts and literature state that the rotor oil seals will be damaged by sustained = oil temperature >210F.

It is also important to use similar = instrumentation to other builders for direct comparison from one installation to the next = …

I only measure return oil temperature myself; = I’d be interested to know what delta T’s (oil) other builders are = seeing.

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of ben haas
Sent: Friday, January 08, = 2010 9:17 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = water temp probe

 

I respectivly disagree on the oil temp sender location. One can have a = very efficient oil cooler that removes alot of heat from the oil. Oil  = 'in' temps are important but,,,, You could possibly have a motor making alot = of oil heat and slowing cooking the motor over time and not really know it. = Just like with the water temp probe. One needs to know exactly what is happening = in the motor in real time...  YMMV.

Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com



 

To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 06:18:39 -0600
From: msteitle@gmail.com
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: water temp probe

Kevin, =

 

I think you want to measure the temp of the coolant as it exits the engine.  That way you know how close you are to your upper = operating limit.  If you have a second input, you can measure the temps after = the radiator.

 

Oil temps are just the opposite... measure temps after oil has been through = the cooler and is entering the engine.

 

Mark S. 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:52 AM, kevin lane <n3773@comcast.net> = wrote:

in looking for a place to mount a water temp probe I realized my radiator = has a drain plug fitting on the bottom of one of the end tanks that could = work.  that portion of the tank has cooled water about to return to the pump.   does it matter if I monitor the before or after = radiator temps?  the engine sees both, right?    =

same question as to the oil temp probe.  the stock oil cooler = has a large fitting [plug?] underneath of one end tank, not sure of its = usage.  also have an extra plug in the oil pan [out the side] which might work [?]  told that originally had a oil level sender unit in there.   kevin 

 

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.


This message, and the documents attached = hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you = have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we = may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.

 

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