X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.0) with ESMTP id 4066032 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 22:35:51 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100106033516.COIX18268.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 22:35:16 -0500 Received: from willsPC ([68.105.91.112]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id S3bF1d0042RT1vG033bGXf; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 22:35:16 -0500 X-VR-Score: -160.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=4cmh2gL1a6RJOvq2diO5/mV5P7W7DelkioqUudxRLMU= c=1 sm=1 a=Fd91bCVGJ9sA:10 a=lTdc4wscJffengO6xjBlCw==:17 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=htpPbcCUr2nkdnkrNsIA:9 a=-X9yb8yCQ5oHpwHkMIkA:7 a=2B2ewnlh2QyVZ2M0HZfjuCMn7awA:4 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=qSx6Uy-Nt2aaHww1:21 a=wpKfbUMghtwz4rYY:21 a=zbmSN_op9JsoJh7EQB4A:9 a=igdTVwKnGjVgj2z_98kA:7 a=5PKciDUyE8Ny2TywKU680F_YlPoA:4 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=lTdc4wscJffengO6xjBlCw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <004A0F2B9FD24FA79EE6DF8013CFF7DC@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 19:35:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0057_01CA8E3E.34946F20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01CA8E3E.34946F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the feedback Tracy. Again, this is just a matter of = familiarity. Given that most of us are used to adjusting mixture by = cranking repeatedly on the big red knob, it does take a little mental = adjustment to get used to the small adjustments needed with the EC-2. = But I'm pretty well dialed into it now. Mike From: Tracy Crook=20 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:13 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year I know what you mean about the range on the mixture control Mike. With = just about any setup, full clockwise on it will give you a too-rich = miss. I have considered reducing the range on it but wanted to make it = possible for a builder to rapidly dial in a usable mixture no matter how = badly the map table or injector flow rate was set up. It also gives a = clue as to when these other things are set up OK. When they are right, = the engine will miss at both ends of the mixture knob setting, too lean = on the bottom and too rich at the top. My best power mixture is = reached with the mixture knob set around 2:00. Lean cruise is around = 10:00. Full CW will make it miss every time.=20 BTW, this characteristic gets even worse when bigger injectors are used. = That's one reason I discourage their use. I'm getting ready to try a = reduced mixture range on my 20B. It has the stock big turbo (550 cc) = injectors and makes the mixture setting touchier than I would like. Tracy On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Mike Wills wrote: My comment wasn=92t intended to be a criticism - as I said I = considered it an operator error. This comes down as a matter of learning = the operating characteristics of my installation. Obviously with a = system as tunable as the EC coupled with so many variations in engine = configurations, each is going to be different. I'm sure there is more tuning/tweaking that I could do to optimize = operation across the full power band. But right now things are working = pretty well and I'm content to fly it as is and learn the = idiosyncrasies. The fine tuning can come later. As for full rich during takeoff/landing, in its current tune my engine = will misfire (too rich) if set to full rich during the descent. I've = found in my test flying to date that there are quite a number of = power/throttle settings where the mixture knob has too much dynamic = range - i.e. at some power/throttle settings going either full rich or = full lean on the knob will cause misfire. Again, not a criticism, just a = matter of learning proper operation of my particular installation. I havent had to execute a go-around as of yet, but in all of my = testing to date, sudden application of full power from a low power = setting hasn=92t caused any problems yet. Time will tell... Mike=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:18 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year I can't really know what the whole story is on Mike's engine = characteristics (a lot of it depends on how the EC2 is set up, tuned and = operated) but keep in mind that the EC2/3 is an open loop system with = none of the benefits of feedback from the O2 sensor. It was never = intended to be a FADEC type single lever power control that many expect. = =20 It was assumed from the start that airplane builders would be familiar = with mixture control requirements of aircraft engines so would not mind = similar requirements when running EFI in an experimental. In a typical = GA aircraft, it is normal to set the mixture to rich (best power) on = takeoff and climb-out, then lean the mixture in cruise for better fuel = economy. It can be leaned even more at lower power settings (ie in = descent) to eek out the last MPG and I do that myself out of habit. = But when it is time to land, it is altogether normal (and necessary) to = set the mixture back to rich when entering the pattern. If not, you can = fully expect the engine to sputter a bit if the throttle is advanced for = a go around. Tracy Crook On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: Maybe so, but it seems no farther than it is in the car and that has = to work quicker than it does in our app. Cars don=92t go all squirrely = when you coast down a long hill??? We all need broad band sensors so we = can tell what is really going on. I am hoping that Ed will get upset by = all this and build one we can buy from him for about a buck! :>) When can we expect the prototype, Ed?? Bill B=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:16 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year My exhaust header is an equal length type with 28" inch primaries = into a 2 -> 1 merge collector. The O2 sensor is threaded into the = collector so I estimate it is about 36" from the exhaust port. It = usually takes about a minute for the readings to settle down after a = cold start, but I've always assumed that they were accurate - even at = idle. Maybe that is an incorrect assumption. Mike =20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 6:48 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year Happy New Year everybody! Mike, How far from the exhaust ports is your O2 sensor located? Does = anyone know what the minimum temp is for the O2 sensor? 800 degrees? Bill B=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:31 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year Happy New Year to you, Mike Wow. I=92ll bet you are glad to be in a different year and glad the = old one gone. I noted your comment on the lean/rich possible O2 cause. Do you = have a heated (3-4 wire) O2 sensor or an unheated one?? Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 9:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] first flight of the new year Hope the holidays are treating you all well. Things are kind of slow = on the list this week. So figured I'd get things going. I havent flown for almost 2 months. First my nephew's accident (he's = recovering amazingly well). Then travel for work. Then had to do an = annual on the airplane. Finally, had surgery to remove my appendix and = gall bladder. Been a busy couple of months. But I'm feeling pretty good now, the airplane is ready for its first = flight after the annual, and today was a spectacular day here with clear = blue sky, unlimited visibility, light breeze, and temps in the mid 60s. = I resolved a number of minor issues during the annual, including the gas = smell that I've been living with for a while now. Found my left tank = vent line was loose where it penetrates the bottom of the fuselage so = was venting into the cockpit. The smell is now completely gone. Also found a solution to a problem I've been noticing since I've = started flying further from the airport. I'd noted on previous flights = when returning to the airport with a long low power descent that the = engine runs quite lean as I enter the pattern requiring the mixture knob = to be turned full rich. On a couple of occasions I've had some misfiring = as I turn final - quite an attention getter! Today I realized the = problem was a non-problem, in other words operator error. While = descending (and for that matter, frequently at other times) I tweak the = mixture based on the mixture monitor reading. Today I ignored the = monitor and just left the mixture alone which worked just fine. I think = during prolonged low power descents the O2 sensor cools off and provides = an inaccurate reading. The occasional misfire was the result of running = too rich (the mixture monitor indicated mid range readings). So todays flight was trouble free and gets me an hour closer to the = end of phase 1. 18 hours down, 22 to go. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01CA8E3E.34946F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the feedback Tracy. Again, this is = just a=20 matter of familiarity. Given that most of us are used to adjusting = mixture by=20 cranking repeatedly on the big red knob, it does take a little mental = adjustment=20 to get used to the small adjustments needed with the EC-2. But I'm = pretty well=20 dialed into it now.
 
Mike

Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:13 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new=20 year

I know what you mean about the range on the mixture = control=20 Mike.  With just about any setup, full clockwise on it will give = you a=20 too-rich miss.  I have considered reducing the range on it but = wanted to=20 make it possible for a builder to rapidly dial in a usable mixture no = matter how=20 badly the map table or injector flow rate was set up.  It also = gives a clue=20 as to when these other things are set up OK.  When they are right, = the=20 engine will miss at both ends of the mixture knob setting, too lean on = the=20 bottom and too rich at the top.   My best power mixture is reached = with the=20 mixture knob set around 2:00.  Lean cruise is around 10:00. Full CW = will=20 make it miss every time.

BTW, this characteristic gets even = worse when=20 bigger injectors are used.  That's one reason I discourage their = use. =20 I'm getting ready to try a reduced mixture range on my 20B.  It has = the=20 stock big turbo (550 cc) injectors and makes the mixture setting = touchier than I=20 would like.

Tracy

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net>=20 wrote:
My comment wasn=92t intended to be a = criticism - as I=20 said I considered it an operator error. This comes down as a matter of = learning the operating characteristics  of my installation. = Obviously=20 with a system as tunable as the EC coupled with so many variations in = engine=20 configurations, each is going to be different.
 
I'm sure there is more tuning/tweaking that = I could do=20 to optimize operation across the full power band. But right now things = are=20 working pretty well and I'm content to fly it as is and learn the=20 idiosyncrasies. The fine tuning can come later.
 
As for full rich during takeoff/landing, in = its=20 current tune my engine will misfire (too rich) if set to full rich = during the=20 descent. I've found in my test flying to date that there are quite a = number of=20 power/throttle settings where the mixture knob has too much dynamic = range -=20 i.e. at some power/throttle settings going either full rich or full = lean on=20 the knob will cause misfire. Again, not a criticism, just a matter of = learning=20 proper operation of my particular installation.
 
I havent had to execute a go-around as of = yet, but in=20 all of my testing to date, sudden application of full power from a low = power=20 setting hasn=92t caused any problems yet. Time will = tell...
 
Mike 

Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:18 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new=20 year

I can't really know what the whole story is on Mike's = engine=20 characteristics (a lot of it depends on how the EC2 is set up, tuned = and=20 operated) but keep in mind that the EC2/3 is an open loop system with = none of=20 the benefits of feedback from the O2 sensor.  It was never = intended to be=20 a FADEC type single lever power control that many expect.  =

It was=20 assumed from the start that airplane builders would be familiar with = mixture=20 control requirements of aircraft engines so would not mind similar=20 requirements when running EFI in an experimental.   In a = typical GA=20 aircraft, it is normal to set the mixture to rich (best power)  = on=20 takeoff and climb-out, then lean the mixture in cruise for better fuel = economy.  It can be leaned even more at lower power settings (ie = in=20 descent) to eek out the last MPG and I do that myself out of=20 habit.   But when it is time to land, it is altogether = normal (and=20 necessary) to set the mixture back to rich when entering the = pattern.  If=20 not, you can fully expect the engine to sputter a bit if the throttle = is=20 advanced for a go around.

Tracy Crook

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Bill = Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Maybe so, but it seems no farther than it = is in the=20 car and that has to work quicker than it does in our app.  Cars = don=92t=20 go all squirrely when you coast down a long hill???  We all = need broad=20 band sensors so we can tell what is really going on.  I am = hoping that=20 Ed will get upset by all this and build one we can buy from him for = about a=20 buck!   :>)

When can we expect the prototype,=20 Ed??

 

Bill B 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Saturday, January 02, = 2010 12:16=20 PM=20


To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new = year

My exhaust header is = an equal=20 length type with 28" inch primaries into a 2 -> 1 merge = collector. The O2=20 sensor is threaded into the collector so I estimate it is about 36" = from the=20 exhaust port. It usually takes about a minute for the readings to = settle=20 down after a cold start, but I've always assumed that they were = accurate -=20 even at idle. Maybe that is an incorrect = assumption.

 

Mike


 

From: Bill = Bradburry=20

Sent:=20 Saturday, January 02, 2010 6:48 AM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft =

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new=20 year

 

Happy New Year = everybody!

 

Mike,

How far from the exhaust ports is your O2 = sensor=20 located?  Does anyone know what the minimum temp is for the O2=20 sensor?  800 degrees?

 

Bill B 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed = Anderson
Sent: Saturday, January 02, = 2010 8:31=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year

Happy New = Year to=20 you, Mike

 

Wow.  I=92ll bet=20 you are glad to be in a different year and glad the old one=20 gone.

 

I noted = your=20 comment on the lean/rich possible O2 cause.  Do you have a = heated (3-4=20 wire) O2 sensor or an unheated one??

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A=20 N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= /P>

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Friday, January 01, = 2010 9:43=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] first flight of the new year

 

Hope the holidays = are treating=20 you all well. Things are kind of slow on the list this week. So = figured I'd=20 get things going.

 

I havent flown for = almost 2=20 months. First my nephew's accident (he's recovering amazingly well). = Then=20 travel for work. Then had to do an annual on the airplane. Finally, = had=20 surgery to remove my appendix and gall bladder. Been a busy couple = of=20 months.

 

But I'm feeling = pretty good=20 now, the airplane is ready for its first flight after the annual, = and today=20 was a spectacular day here with clear blue sky, unlimited = visibility, light=20 breeze, and temps in the mid 60s. I resolved a number of minor = issues during=20 the annual, including the gas smell that I've been living with = for a=20 while now. Found my left tank vent line was loose where it = penetrates the=20 bottom of the fuselage so was venting into the cockpit. The smell is = now=20 completely gone.

 

Also found a = solution to a=20 problem I've been noticing since I've started flying further from = the=20 airport. I'd noted on previous flights when returning to the airport = with a=20 long low power descent that the engine runs quite lean as I enter = the=20 pattern requiring the mixture knob to be turned full rich. On a = couple of=20 occasions I've had some misfiring as I turn final - quite an = attention=20 getter! Today I realized the problem was a non-problem, in other = words=20 operator error. While descending (and for that matter, frequently at = other=20 times) I tweak the mixture based on the mixture monitor reading. = Today I=20 ignored the monitor and just left the mixture alone which worked = just fine.=20 I think during prolonged low power descents the O2 sensor = cools=20 off and provides an inaccurate reading. The occasional misfire was = the=20 result of running too rich (the mixture monitor indicated mid range=20 readings).

 

So todays flight was = trouble=20 free and gets me an hour closer to the end of phase 1. 18 hours = down, 22 to=20 go.

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW  



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



------=_NextPart_000_0057_01CA8E3E.34946F20--