X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com ([209.85.221.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.0) with ESMTP id 4063222 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Jan 2010 10:13:40 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.174; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so6376303qyk.7 for ; Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:13:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=helJBI5c1E90GDP0/KiC3vy4Ur3S/TgLonF1GFzb9Vc=; b=ZVDlUJNmK459ZC6vL49EFcdPyh/ooiaTCJeAcg5JwPHtQc+febh7AdhcOkRS62jvAg Cy0PLeoAkeO40kbJTWPs7ypR5wR1VZwO+J8geQsKh2EVMuALYbzJJAUq22u/RljfisMN zBC2We5fUFby342UoznvE00xy+deKgROgRaSQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=QJf5kHPL2iPTUU1t/Hfp6xbfaiUc9Pp87+LPj20oLZVnyjm2vtwFZ4FrRMAeLxCKsX NsHqGCw/E1y91sS7MZWMj5Wn4YmxfFdz6InGU/3CLkw8Y1rAjTvp1jM0e3orb1ccsu6v LzwZR5LFSdc6aq8KXQ/Ur2KUS+lBSKjlmmIm0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.36.140 with SMTP id t12mr11211355qad.339.1262617983161; Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:13:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:13:03 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 10b5ccd3c116b211 Message-ID: <1b4b137c1001040713s7e7f2c8amb6128af72d2b897a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f88d2f05f9881047c5828d1 --00c09f88d2f05f9881047c5828d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know what you mean about the range on the mixture control Mike. With jus= t about any setup, full clockwise on it will give you a too-rich miss. I hav= e considered reducing the range on it but wanted to make it possible for a builder to rapidly dial in a usable mixture no matter how badly the map table or injector flow rate was set up. It also gives a clue as to when these other things are set up OK. When they are right, the engine will mis= s at both ends of the mixture knob setting, too lean on the bottom and too rich at the top. My best power mixture is reached with the mixture knob set around 2:00. Lean cruise is around 10:00. Full CW will make it miss every time. BTW, this characteristic gets even worse when bigger injectors are used. That's one reason I discourage their use. I'm getting ready to try a reduced mixture range on my 20B. It has the stock big turbo (550 cc) injectors and makes the mixture setting touchier than I would like. Tracy On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > My comment wasn=92t intended to be a criticism - as I said I considered = it > an operator error. This comes down as a matter of learning the operating > characteristics of my installation. Obviously with a system as tunable a= s > the EC coupled with so many variations in engine configurations, each is > going to be different. > > I'm sure there is more tuning/tweaking that I could do to optimize > operation across the full power band. But right now things are working > pretty well and I'm content to fly it as is and learn the idiosyncrasies. > The fine tuning can come later. > > As for full rich during takeoff/landing, in its current tune my engine wi= ll > misfire (too rich) if set to full rich during the descent. I've found in = my > test flying to date that there are quite a number of power/throttle setti= ngs > where the mixture knob has too much dynamic range - i.e. at some > power/throttle settings going either full rich or full lean on the knob w= ill > cause misfire. Again, not a criticism, just a matter of learning proper > operation of my particular installation. > > I havent had to execute a go-around as of yet, but in all of my testing t= o > date, sudden application of full power from a low power setting hasn=92t > caused any problems yet. Time will tell... > > Mike > > *From:* Tracy Crook > *Sent:* Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:18 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year > > I can't really know what the whole story is on Mike's engine > characteristics (a lot of it depends on how the EC2 is set up, tuned and > operated) but keep in mind that the EC2/3 is an open loop system with non= e > of the benefits of feedback from the O2 sensor. It was never intended to= be > a FADEC type single lever power control that many expect. > > It was assumed from the start that airplane builders would be familiar wi= th > mixture control requirements of aircraft engines so would not mind simila= r > requirements when running EFI in an experimental. In a typical GA > aircraft, it is normal to set the mixture to rich (best power) on takeof= f > and climb-out, then lean the mixture in cruise for better fuel economy. = It > can be leaned even more at lower power settings (ie in descent) to eek ou= t > the last MPG and I do that myself out of habit. But when it is time to > land, it is altogether normal (and necessary) to set the mixture back to > rich when entering the pattern. If not, you can fully expect the engine = to > sputter a bit if the throttle is advanced for a go around. > > Tracy Crook > > On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: > >> Maybe so, but it seems no farther than it is in the car and that has t= o >> work quicker than it does in our app. Cars don=92t go all squirrely whe= n you >> coast down a long hill??? We all need broad band sensors so we can tell >> what is really going on. I am hoping that Ed will get upset by all this= and >> build one we can buy from him for about a buck! :>) >> >> When can we expect the prototype, Ed?? >> >> >> >> Bill B >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Mike Wills >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:16 PM >> >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year >> >> My exhaust header is an equal length type with 28" inch primaries into a= 2 >> -> 1 merge collector. The O2 sensor is threaded into the collector so I >> estimate it is about 36" from the exhaust port. It usually takes about a >> minute for the readings to settle down after a cold start, but I've alwa= ys >> assumed that they were accurate - even at idle. Maybe that is an incorre= ct >> assumption. >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Bill Bradburry >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 02, 2010 6:48 AM >> >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year >> >> >> >> Happy New Year everybody! >> >> >> >> Mike, >> >> How far from the exhaust ports is your O2 sensor located? Does anyone >> know what the minimum temp is for the O2 sensor? 800 degrees? >> >> >> >> Bill B >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Ed Anderson >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:31 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year >> >> Happy New Year to you, Mike >> >> >> >> Wow. I=92ll bet you are glad to be in a different year and glad the old= one >> gone. >> >> >> >> I noted your comment on the lean/rich possible O2 cause. Do you have a >> heated (3-4 wire) O2 sensor or an unheated one?? >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Mike Wills >> *Sent:* Friday, January 01, 2010 9:43 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] first flight of the new year >> >> >> >> Hope the holidays are treating you all well. Things are kind of slow on >> the list this week. So figured I'd get things going. >> >> >> >> I havent flown for almost 2 months. First my nephew's accident (he's >> recovering amazingly well). Then travel for work. Then had to do an annu= al >> on the airplane. Finally, had surgery to remove my appendix and gall >> bladder. Been a busy couple of months. >> >> >> >> But I'm feeling pretty good now, the airplane is ready for its first >> flight after the annual, and today was a spectacular day here with clear >> blue sky, unlimited visibility, light breeze, and temps in the mid 60s. = I >> resolved a number of minor issues during the annual, including the gas s= mell >> that I've been living with for a while now. Found my left tank vent line= was >> loose where it penetrates the bottom of the fuselage so was venting into= the >> cockpit. The smell is now completely gone. >> >> >> >> Also found a solution to a problem I've been noticing since I've started >> flying further from the airport. I'd noted on previous flights when >> returning to the airport with a long low power descent that the engine r= uns >> quite lean as I enter the pattern requiring the mixture knob to be turne= d >> full rich. On a couple of occasions I've had some misfiring as I turn fi= nal >> - quite an attention getter! Today I realized the problem was a non-prob= lem, >> in other words operator error. While descending (and for that matter, >> frequently at other times) I tweak the mixture based on the mixture moni= tor >> reading. Today I ignored the monitor and just left the mixture alone whi= ch >> worked just fine. I think during prolonged low power descents the O2 sen= sor >> cools off and provides an inaccurate reading. The occasional misfire was= the >> result of running too rich (the mixture monitor indicated mid range >> readings). >> >> >> >> So todays flight was trouble free and gets me an hour closer to the end = of >> phase 1. 18 hours down, 22 to go. >> >> >> >> Mike Wills >> >> RV-4 N144MW >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> > > --00c09f88d2f05f9881047c5828d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know what you mean about the range on the mixture control Mike.=A0 With j= ust about any setup, full clockwise on it will give you a too-rich miss.=A0= I have considered reducing the range on it but wanted to make it possible = for a builder to rapidly dial in a usable mixture no matter how badly the m= ap table or injector flow rate was set up.=A0 It also gives a clue as to wh= en these other things are set up OK.=A0 When they are right, the engine wil= l miss at both ends of the mixture knob setting, too lean on the bottom and= too rich at the top. =A0 My best power mixture is reached with the mixture= knob set around 2:00.=A0 Lean cruise is around 10:00. Full CW will make it= miss every time.

BTW, this characteristic gets even worse when bigger injectors are used= .=A0 That's one reason I discourage their use.=A0 I'm getting ready= to try a reduced mixture range on my 20B.=A0 It has the stock big turbo (5= 50 cc) injectors and makes the mixture setting touchier than I would like.<= br>
Tracy

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 9:38 PM,= Mike Wills <rv-4m= ike@cox.net> wrote:
My comment wasn=92t intended to be a criticism = - as I said=20 I considered it an operator error. This comes down as a matter of learning = the=20 operating characteristics=A0 of my installation. Obviously with a system as= =20 tunable as the EC coupled with so many variations in engine configurations,= each=20 is going to be different.
=A0
I'm sure there is more tuning/tweaking that= I could do=20 to optimize operation across the full power band. But right now things are= =20 working pretty well and I'm content to fly it as is and learn the=20 idiosyncrasies. The fine tuning=A0can come later.
=A0
As for full rich during takeoff/landing, in its= current=20 tune my engine will misfire (too rich) if set to full rich during the desce= nt.=20 I've found in my test flying to date that there are quite a number of= =20 power/throttle settings where the mixture knob has too much dynamic range -= i.e.=20 at some power/throttle settings going either full rich or full lean on the = knob=20 will cause misfire. Again, not a criticism, just a matter of learning prope= r=20 operation of my particular installation.
=A0
I havent had to execute a go-around as of yet, = but in=20 all of my testing to date, sudden application of full power from a low powe= r=20 setting hasn=92t caused any problems yet. Time will tell...
=A0
Mike=A0

Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:18 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight o= f the new=20 year

I can't really know what the whole story is on Mike'= s engine=20 characteristics (a lot of it depends on how the EC2 is set up, tuned and=20 operated) but keep in mind that the EC2/3 is an open loop system with none = of=20 the benefits of feedback from the O2 sensor.=A0 It was never intended to be= a=20 FADEC type single lever power control that many expect.=A0

It was= =20 assumed from the start that airplane builders would be familiar with mixtur= e=20 control requirements of aircraft engines so would not mind similar requirem= ents=20 when running EFI in an experimental.=A0=A0 In a typical GA aircraft, it is= =20 normal to set the mixture to rich (best power)=A0 on takeoff and climb-out,= =20 then lean the mixture in cruise for better fuel economy.=A0 It can be leane= d=20 even more at lower power settings (ie in descent) to eek out the last MPG a= nd I=20 do that myself out of habit.=A0=A0 But when it is time to land, it is=20 altogether normal (and necessary) to set the mixture back to rich when ente= ring=20 the pattern.=A0 If not, you can fully expect the engine to sputter a bit if= =20 the throttle is advanced for a go around.

Tracy Crook

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Bill Bradburry <= span dir=3D"ltr"><bbradburry@bellsouth.net>=20 wrote:

Maybe so, but it seems no farther than it is in th= e=20 car and that has to work quicker than it does in our app.=A0 Cars don=92t= go=20 all squirrely when you coast down a long hill???=A0 We all need broad ban= d=20 sensors so we can tell what is really going on.=A0 I am hoping that Ed wi= ll=20 get upset by all this and build one we can buy from him for about a=20 buck!=A0=A0 :>)

When can we expect the prototype,=20 Ed??

=A0

Bill B=A0

=A0

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:16=20 PM


To:<= /b> Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary]=20 Re: first flight of the new year

<= /div>

My exhaust header is an equal=20 length type with 28" inch primaries into a 2 -> 1 merge collector= . The O2=20 sensor is threaded into the collector so I estimate it is about 36" = from the=20 exhaust port. It usually takes about a minute for the readings to settle = down=20 after a cold start, but I've always assumed that they were accurate -= even at=20 idle. Maybe that is an incorrect assumption.

=A0

Mike


=A0

F= rom: Bill Bradburry=20

S= ent:=20 Saturday, January 02, 2010 6:48 AM

S= ubject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new=20 year

=A0

Happy New Year everybody!

=A0

Mike,

How far from the exhaust ports is your O2 sensor= =20 located?=A0 Does anyone know what the minimum temp is for the O2=20 sensor?=A0 800 degrees?

=A0

Bill B=A0

=A0

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:31=20 AM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: [Fl= yRotary]=20 Re: first flight of the new year

Happy New Ye= ar to=20 you, Mike

=A0

Wow.=A0 I=92= ll bet=20 you are glad to be in a different year and glad the old one=20 gone.

=A0

I noted your= comment=20 on the lean/rich possible O2 cause.=A0 Do you have a heated (3-4 wire) O2= =20 sensor or an unheated one??

=A0

Ed

=A0

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 9:43=20 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: [Fl= yRotary]=20 first flight of the new year

=A0

Hope the holidays are treating=20 you all well. Things are kind of slow on the list this week. So figured I= 'd=20 get things going.

=A0

I havent flown for almost 2=20 months. First my nephew's accident (he's recovering amazingly wel= l). Then=20 travel for work. Then had to do an annual on the airplane. Finally, had= =20 surgery to remove my appendix and gall bladder. Been a busy couple of=20 months.

=A0

But I'm feeling pretty good now,= =20 the airplane is ready for its first flight after the annual, and today wa= s a=20 spectacular day here with clear blue sky, unlimited visibility, light bre= eze,=20 and temps in the mid 60s. I resolved a number of minor issues during the= =20 annual, including the gas smell that=A0I've been living with for a wh= ile=20 now. Found my left tank vent line was loose where it penetrates the botto= m of=20 the fuselage so was venting into the cockpit. The smell is now completely= =20 gone.

=A0

Also found a solution to a=20 problem I've been noticing since I've started flying further from= the airport.=20 I'd noted on previous flights when returning to the airport with a lo= ng low=20 power descent that the engine runs quite lean as I enter the pattern requ= iring=20 the mixture knob to be turned full rich. On a couple of occasions I'v= e had=20 some misfiring as I turn final - quite an attention getter! Today I reali= zed=20 the problem was a non-problem, in other words operator error. While desce= nding=20 (and for that matter, frequently at other times) I tweak the mixture base= d on=20 the mixture monitor reading. Today I ignored the monitor and just left th= e=20 mixture alone which worked just fine. I think during prolonged=A0low powe= r=20 descents the=A0O2 sensor cools off and provides an inaccurate reading. Th= e=20 occasional misfire was the result of running too rich (the mixture monito= r=20 indicated mid range readings).

=A0

So todays flight was trouble=20 free and gets me an hour closer to the end of phase 1. 18 hours down, 22 = to=20 go.

=A0

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW=A0=A0



__________ Information from ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com<= /span>



--00c09f88d2f05f9881047c5828d1--