X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 4028580 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:40:31 -0500 Received-SPF: error receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.64; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by QMTA07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id JpL31d0040QkzPwA7pfvR4; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 01:39:55 +0000 Received: from gregiv ([24.6.75.252]) by OMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Jpfu1d0025ScAtC8Npfu1Z; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 01:39:54 +0000 Message-ID: <41C37E6E377845229D3A4770A838832C@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator/Oil Cooler Combo Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:45:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0E64_01CA8009.E9EFD370" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0E64_01CA8009.E9EFD370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Ed' How come that there triangle thingy ain't on my keyboard??........(:-) Greg Ward Lancair 20B N178RG, struggling to get airborne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 5:24 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator/Oil Cooler Combo=20 I think while there are lot of Nifty looking gadgets out there, you = need to keep in mind that what may work well for a piston engine in = cooling oil may not for the rotary. The basic reason is the rotary = dumps approx 1/3 of its total waste heat load (not counting exhaust = heat) through the oil. In fact, you can calculate the approx BTU you = must get rid of through the oil. =20 A 13B turning 6500 rpm with an 12.65 (best power) air fuel ratio will = be flowing approx 16.1 gallons per hour. This equates to needing to get = rid of approx 2650 BTU/MIN of waste heat through the oil cooler. Now = using the old heat transfer equation Q =3D BTU, M =3D mass flow and Dt = =3D temp difference, cp (air =3D 0.25) Q =3D M*Dt*cp and assuming you heat up the air so that it exits 100 = deg F hotter than it went into the cooler, then solving for the air mass = M required =3D Q/ Dt*cp =3D 2650 /100*0.25 =3D 106 lbms/min or 106 = pounds of air per minute. =20 A cubic foot of air at sea level =3D approx 0.0765 lb/cubic foot. So = to get 106 lbms/min you need to have 106/0.0765 =3D 1385 CFM of air flow through the oil cooler. Now that is a = sizeable amount of air required just for the oil cooler at a modest = power output of 160 HP. =20 =20 My point, is that, before you go spending your money and adding weight = and complexity to your installation, sit down and determine what each = element will do for you and whether it is really worth the money and = weight. =20 My person opinion is that it is hard to beat the efficiency of a well = position oil cooler with adequate airflow through it. =20 But, just my opinion. Certainly there are cases where a small cooling = assist might make the difference and these things might make the = difference. In some cases, space precludes the idea solution and in = that case oil/water heat exchangers and other methods are called for. =20 =20 But, if you are in the planning stages, my suggestion is strive to get = the right sized oil cooler positioned with good air flow. =20 Ed =20 =20 =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of william singer Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 4:51 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator/Oil Cooler Combo=20 =20 Modine makes such coolers. My Ford Thunderbirds (89 to95) have them. = wiliam singer ----- Original Message -----=20 From: sboese=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:26 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator/Oil Cooler Combo=20 =20 Our 1992 Honda Accord EX Wagon has a oil to water heat exchanger = that is sandwiched between the oil filter and the engine block. It is = about 2=94 thick, the same diameter as the filter, and mounts with a = longer hollow stud than would be used to mount the filter directly to = the block. I have no idea of its capacity. =20 Steve Boese =20 =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Thomas Mann Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:03 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Radiator/Oil Cooler Combo=20 =20 =85.does anyone know of an oil filter mount that includes a heat = exchanger? =20 T Mann __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0E64_01CA8009.E9EFD370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Ed'
How come that there = triangle thingy=20 ain't on my keyboard??........(:-)
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B N178RG, = struggling to=20 get airborne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 = 5:24=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Radiator/Oil=20 Cooler Combo

I think = while there=20 are lot of Nifty looking gadgets out there, you need to keep in mind = that what=20 may work well for a piston engine in cooling oil may not for the = rotary. =20 The basic reason is the rotary dumps approx 1/3 of its total waste = heat load=20 (not counting exhaust heat) through the oil.  In fact, you can = calculate=20 the approx BTU you must get rid of through the=20 oil.

 

A 13B = turning 6500=20 rpm with an 12.65 (best power) air fuel ratio will be flowing approx = 16.1=20 gallons per hour.  This equates to needing to get rid of approx=20  2650 BTU/MIN of waste heat  through the oil cooler.  = Now using=20 the old heat transfer  equation  Q =3D BTU, M =3D mass flow = and=20 Dt =3D temp = difference,=20 cp (air =3D 0.25)

Q =3D=20 M*Dt*cp  = and=20 assuming you heat up the air so that it exits 100 deg F hotter than it = went=20 into the cooler, then solving for the air mass M required =3D  Q/ = Dt*cp  = =3D 2650=20 /100*0.25 =3D 106 lbms/min or 106 pounds of air per=20 minute.

 

A cubic = foot of air=20 at sea level =3D approx 0.0765 lb/cubic foot.  So to get 106 = lbms/min you=20 need to have 106/0.0765

=3D 1385 = CFM of air=20 flow through the oil cooler.  Now that is a sizeable amount of = air=20 required just for the oil cooler at a modest power output of 160 = HP. =20

 

My point, = is that,=20 before you go spending your money and adding weight and complexity to = your=20 installation, sit down and determine what each element will do for you = and=20 whether it is really worth the money and = weight.

 

My person = opinion is=20 that it is hard to beat the efficiency of a well position oil cooler = with=20 adequate airflow through it.

 

But, just = my=20 opinion.  Certainly there are cases where a small cooling =  assist=20 might make the difference and these things might make the = difference.  In=20 some cases, space precludes the idea solution and in that case = oil/water heat=20 exchangers and other methods are called for.  =20

 

But, if you = are in=20 the planning stages, my suggestion is strive to get the right sized = oil cooler=20 positioned with good air flow.

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW=20 Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of william singer
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 = 4:51=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Radiator/Oil=20 Cooler Combo

 

Modine makes such = coolers. =20 My Ford Thunderbirds (89 to95) have them.  wiliam=20 singer

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: sboese=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Friday,=20 December 18, 2009 10:26 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Radiator/Oil Cooler Combo=20

 

Our 1992 = Honda=20 Accord EX Wagon has a oil to water heat exchanger that is sandwiched = between=20 the oil filter and the engine block.  It is about 2=94 thick, = the same=20 diameter as the filter, and mounts with a longer hollow stud than = would be=20 used to mount the filter directly to the block.  I have no idea = of its=20 capacity.

 

Steve=20 Boese

 

 

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Thomas Mann
Sent: Friday, December 18, = 2009 9:03=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Radiator/Oil=20 Cooler Combo

 

=85.does = anyone=20 know of an oil filter mount that includes a heat=20 exchanger?

 

T=20 Mann



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

------=_NextPart_000_0E64_01CA8009.E9EFD370--