X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from lrcmmta07-srv.windstream.net ([166.102.165.79] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 4003749 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 08:03:15 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=166.102.165.79; envelope-from=jskmberki@windstream.net Return-Path: X-WS-COS: WSOB804 X-Cloudmark-Category: Undefined:Undefined X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=pV9YOAeFqlmk5rZ+C/BOU5A/1lJ17QGflHEJHRDtWHM= c=1 sm=0 a=bInpyL9yOhwA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=FYN5-xcaAAAA:8 a=Wg-OZ0JjitLpE9h5NjoA:9 a=SUHJZV1ljSeQvAFxgB4A:7 a=6Fnw2KtNIRFh-XO4uXjSxmh6M4AA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=tsUWVG2q9afwhcs1:21 a=HTm67ch3z_7RpE8N:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=YarKIx00AAAA:8 a=Z836Yk1EGBO7UPKwt_gA:9 a=PsgnynQ7dj6CQtfTlSQA:7 a=Kd1nGaFFQ7Hzk-5JhAkwdK_-e9sA:4 a=q03wWUK6tb4A:10 a=nlwsyN+eA55+EVC6VX6AKw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 Authentication-Results: lrcmmta07 smtp.user=jskmberki; auth=pass (LOGIN) Received: from [174.130.87.238] ([174.130.87.238:61840] helo=joehomepc) by lrcmmta07 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.43 r()) with ESMTPA id 5E/8A-17373-DE95A1B4; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 07:02:39 -0600 Message-ID: <001901ca75ac$123d9190$01fea8c0@joehomepc> From: "josrph berki" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity - Wire Types Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:08:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA7582.286B7650" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1983 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1983 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA7582.286B7650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, Teflon wire is more prone to cold flow in that the insulation will move = at room or cold temps when the wire is excessively restricted. This = also caused one of NASAs launch vehicles to fail. I prefer the PVC = insulation. It is readily available in different colors and the heat = ceiling is so high that if the insulation sees that kind of a temp your = AC might be on fire. Proper fusing and wire routing is more important = than insulation melting points. Just my opinion. Joe Berki Limo EZ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Luckey=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity - Wire Types I read thru Greg's paper and found it very interesting. He recommends = Teflon wire as opposed to Tefzel wire.=20 =20 I'm wondering: what are the main differences between the two types of = insulation. I remember reading something about Teflon being softer or = less durable - but I don't remember the details. =20 =20 Are there any A&P/EE's out there who want to tackle this question? = (mere mortals can also feel free to respond as well ;) =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 14:57 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity =20 George, He is probably not talking to folks who install an electrically = dependant alternative engine. If you just forget the problems that = might arise getting Tracy's controllers, etc, and the 12V auto starter = to work on 24V, you still have to accept the fact that that "big 24V = battery" can fail. If is does and you don't have a second battery, it = will get very quiet in the cockpit until the screaming starts. Also = don't forget that the only way you can get a 24V battery is to tie two = 12V batteries together. If you go with one 24V battery, you have the = same battery weight plus the weight of redundant busses. If you go with = two batteries, you now have 4 times the weight of one 12V battery. If = you try to mix the systems so you have 24V and 12V, you have a = nightmare. The only real advantage seems to me to be wire weight (smaller wire = for 24V). I am pretty sure that I ate more weight for last nights = dinner than the entire wireing system in my plane :>) =20 If you really want to save weight in your plane, go on a diet! (I = don't want to hear that you are 7 feet tall and weigh 120 lbs! :>)) =20 Bill B=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 3:45 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity Kelly, Being electronically challenged I had a quick look. It says 24 volts = is better for aircraft use eliminating the need for extra batteries and = alternator, I'm wondering why builders collectively don't already go = that way. Are there complications or additional expenses to be = considered or are auto conversions typically locked in to a 12 volt = system for one reason or another - perhaps just the alternator. George ( down under) Group, Some of you may have already seen this and to others this = may be knowledge that you carry=20 around in your head and use everyday but to someone like me whose = schooling in AC/DC (Navy)=20 electricity was 50 plus years ago and also something I do not use = everyday the following link has refreshed my old brain..............Hope some of the group finds it = useful.............. =20 = http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/0903_aircraft_wiring.pdf -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CA7582.286B7650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff,
 
Teflon wire is more prone to cold flow = in that the=20 insulation will move at room  or cold temps when the wire is = excessively=20 restricted.  This also caused one of NASAs launch vehicles to = fail.  I=20 prefer the PVC insulation.  It is readily available in different = colors and=20 the heat ceiling is so high that if the insulation sees that kind of a = temp your=20 AC might be on fire.  Proper fusing and wire routing is more = important than=20 insulation melting points.  Just my opinion.
 
Joe Berki
Limo EZ
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jeff Luckey=20
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 = 11:20=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer = in AC/DC=20 Electricity - Wire Types

I read thru = Greg=92s=20 paper and found it very interesting.  He recommends Teflon wire = as=20 opposed to Tefzel wire.

 

I=92m = wondering: what=20 are the main differences between the two types of insulation. I = remember=20 reading something about Teflon being softer or less durable =96 but I = don=92t=20 remember the details. 

 

Are there = any=20 A&P/EE=92s out there who want to tackle this question? (mere = mortals can=20 also feel free to respond as well ;)

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill = Bradburry
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 = 14:57
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Primer in AC/DC Electricity

 

George,

He is probably not talking to folks who = install an=20 electrically dependant alternative engine.  If you just forget = the=20 problems that might arise getting Tracy=92s controllers, etc, and the = 12V auto=20 starter to work on 24V, you still have to accept the fact that that = =93big 24V=20 battery=94 can fail.  If is does and you don=92t have a second = battery, it=20 will get very quiet in the cockpit until the screaming starts.  = Also=20 don=92t forget that the only way you can get a 24V battery is to tie = two 12V=20 batteries together.  If you go with one 24V battery, you have the = same=20 battery weight plus the weight of redundant busses.  If you go = with two=20 batteries, you now have 4 times the weight of one 12V battery.  = If you=20 try to mix the systems so you have 24V and 12V, you have a=20 nightmare.

The only real advantage seems to me to be = wire weight=20 (smaller wire for 24V).  I am pretty sure that I ate more weight = for last=20 nights dinner than the entire wireing system in my plane =20 :>)

 

If you really want to save weight in your = plane, go on=20 a diet!  (I don=92t want to hear that you are 7 feet tall and = weigh 120=20 lbs!  :>))

 

Bill = B 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 = 3:45=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Primer = in AC/DC=20 Electricity

Kelly,

Being electronically = challenged I=20 had a quick look. It says 24 volts is better for aircraft use = eliminating the=20 need for extra batteries and alternator, I'm wondering why builders=20 collectively don't already go that way. Are there complications or = additional=20 expenses to be considered or are auto conversions typically locked in = to a 12=20 volt system for one reason or another - perhaps just the=20 alternator.

George ( down=20 under)

Group,

        =  Some of you may have already seen this and to others this = may be=20 knowledge that you carry

around in your head and use everyday but = to someone=20 like me whose schooling in AC/DC=20 (Navy) 

electricity was 50 plus years ago and also = something=20 I do not use everyday the following link=20 has

refreshed my old brain..............Hope = some of the=20 group finds it = useful..............

 

      http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/0903_aircraft_wiring.pdf

--
Kelly Troyer =
"Dyke Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20 =

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