X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost06.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.106] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c3) with ESMTP id 3995811 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:12:57 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.106; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1259601176; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=ds/V4N 58km/a2n7Ji2PcqldAKBT37afjqqu6aQvtMp8=; b=dZ/O8rRIHAnHHyrqAFzS5omFp j7LKK2uC7jOizDMNDPwaSzhTODLR9PV2oZOcSbslaKB/Y9kZ2bbhs4zKslEPQ== Received: from fwebmail31.isp.att.net ([207.115.9.161]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc06) with SMTP id <20091130171220H0600llm5te>; Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:12:20 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [207.115.9.161] Received: from [208.114.40.161] by fwebmail31.isp.att.net; Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:12:19 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Down load EC2-3 to laptop Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:12:19 +0000 Message-Id: <113020091712.25906.4B13FCF3000A21620000653222243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25906_1259601139_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25906_1259601139_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Steve Boise, I have accidentally deleted your private post on the cables and you= r software to down load EC2-3 info to laptop or handheld...........I have the cables and = adapter=20 hardware but have lost all photos and link to your software..........Would = appreciate it if you would resend info to both the following E mail address's.........= ..... keltro@att.net keltro@gmail.com -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from Tracy Crook = : --------------=20 I doubt anodizing is a factor. Keep in mind that the starter we use is a l= ight duty one but its rating is 1.2 KW. With a typical cranking voltage o= f 10 volts, that's 120 amps. With that kind of current, the only logical r= outing of the ground cable is as directly to the load as possible.=20=20 Do the math. At that current level, it only takes about .008 ohms to drop= your working voltage a full 1 volt. That's 10% of your cranking power los= t. Rotaries are especially sensitive to cranking speed because they lose m= ore compression than piston engines at low speed. Low compression makes st= arting more difficult. Losses in this circuit must be minimized for many r= easons. Also note that the ground connection point that many have said th= ey are using goes very near the crank sensor and its wiring. This proximit= y makes inductive coupling into the CAS circuit more likely.=20=20=20 Add all these factors up and it is not surprising that many builders have s= tarting problems. Tracy=20=20=20 On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote: I=E2=80=99m curious about the engine mount style you guys are using with th= is voltage drop situation. I can=E2=80=99t imagine this problem occurring with the bed-mount/aluminum = plate between the oil pan and engine block configuration. Surely a 3/8=E2=80=9D or =C2=BD=E2=80=9D plate of aluminum and 20 bolts wil= l conduct from housing to housing? - unless maybe it was anodized? Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start Steve,=20 Glad you got things figured out (we were running out of suggestions). Sure= gives one a good feeling after battling a problem for so long. BTW, I hav= e two grounds on my engine. One is to the front cover, one to the front si= de housing. I'll check into moving one up to the starter. Mark On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Steve Brooks wrote: Al & Mark, I would say that many people may have their ground to the engine block. Min= e has been that way since I built the plane, and worked fine for three or f= our years before I started having an issue. I had to order a couple of new crimp connectors, so that I can make a longe= r ground cable. Hopefully they will arrive before Thanksgiving, so that I c= an get it all hooked up over the long weekend. Steve Brooks Al Gietzen wrote: Steve, I read your other post on what you discovered regarding your bad ground. I = wonder how many of us have our engine grounds tied to a bolt near the front= cover or end housing? (Mine does...) Mark S. Mine does as well =E2=80=93 bolts to the front cover. I have never had a st= arting issue, but I have followed this discussion with interest because a c= ouple of years ago I did a starting spark check and found the sparks consid= erably weaker than the mode 8 (or whatever) check. I just assumed it was du= e to the voltage drawdown when the starter was running. Now it=E2=80=99s wo= rth another look. I recall giving it some thought when doing the wiring (My EC/EM manuals app= arently predated Tracy recommended wiring diagram). I concluded that the va= rious things bolted to the engine, like the manifolds, would provide good c= onduction paths regardless of the sealing between layers =E2=80=93 and the = 20B has a couple more layers. Both my intake and exhaust flanges are contin= uous and connect all the layers, and there are other things making the conn= ection to the front cover, so this would be less of an issue compared to an= installation having separate flanges to each housing. Anyway, Steve; I=E2=80=99m glad you found the problem. And thanks; it=E2=80= =99s a help to the rotary community, and again proves the value of a list s= uch as this. Al G -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25906_1259601139_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25906_1259601139_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25906_1259601139_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To Steve Boise,
        I have accidentally deleted= your private post on the cables and your software to
down load EC2-3 info to laptop or handheld...........I have the cables= and adapter
hardware but have lost all photos and link to your software..........W= ould appreciate
it if you would resend info to both the following E mail address's....= ..........
 
 
 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from Tracy Crook <tracy@r= otaryaviation.com>: --------------

I doubt anodizing is a factor= .  Keep in mind that the starter we use is a light duty one but its ra= ting is 1.2 KW.   With a typical cranking voltage of 10 volts, th= at's 120 amps.  With that kind of current, the only logical routing of= the ground cable is as directly to the load as possible. 

Do = the math.  At that current level, it only takes about .008 ohms  = to drop your working voltage a full 1 volt.  That's 10% of your cranki= ng power lost.  Rotaries are especially sensitive to cranking speed be= cause they lose more compression than piston engines at low speed.  Lo= w compression makes starting more difficult.  Losses in this circuit m= ust be minimized for many reasons.   Also note that the ground co= nnection point that many have said they are using goes very near the crank = sensor and its wiring.  This proximity makes inductive coupling into t= he CAS circuit more likely.  

Add all these factors up and it = is not surprising that many builders have starting problems.

Tracy &= nbsp;

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com= > wrote:

I=E2=80=99m curious about the engine mount style you guys are using with t= his voltage drop situation.

I can=E2=80=99t imagine this problem occurring with the bed-mount/aluminum= plate between the oil pan and engine block configuration.

Surely a 3/8=E2=80=9D or =C2=BD=E2=80=9D plate of aluminum and 20 bolts wi= ll conduct from housing to housing?  - unless maybe it was anodized?

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline= .net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, November= 23, 2009 4:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start

 

Steve,

 

Glad you got things figured out (we were running = out of suggestions).  Sure gives one a good feeling after battlin= g a problem for so long.  BTW, I have two grounds on my engine.  = One is to the front cover, one to the front side housing.  I'll c= heck into moving one up to the starter.

Mark

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Steve Brooks <cozy4pilot@gmail.com> wrote:

Al & Mark,
I would say that many people may hav= e their ground to the engine block. Mine has been that way since I built th= e plane, and worked fine for three or four years before I started having an= issue.

I had to order a couple of new crimp connectors, so that I c= an make a longer ground cable. Hopefully they will arrive before Thanksgivi= ng, so that I can get it all hooked up over the long weekend.

Steve = Brooks


Al Gietzen wrote:


Steve,

I read= your other post on what you discovered regarding your bad ground. I wonder= how many of us have our engine grounds tied to a bolt near the front cover= or end housing? (Mine does...)

Mark S.

Mine does as well =E2= =80=93 bolts to the front cover. I have never had a starting issue, but I h= ave followed this discussion with interest because a couple of years ago I = did a starting spark check and found the sparks considerably weaker than th= e mode 8 (or whatever) check. I just assumed it was due to the voltage draw= down when the starter was running. Now it=E2=80=99s worth another look.
=
I recall giving it some thought when doing the wiring (My EC/EM manuals= apparently predated Tracy recommended wiring diagram). I concluded that th= e various things bolted to the engine, like the manifolds, would provide go= od conduction paths regardless of the sealing between layers =E2=80=93 and = the 20B has a couple more layers. Both my intake and exhaust flanges are co= ntinuous and connect all the layers, and there are other things making the = connection to the front cover, so this would be less of an issue compared t= o an installation having separate flanges to each housing.

Anyway, S= teve; I=E2=80=99m glad you found the problem. And thanks; it=E2=80=99s a he= lp to the rotary community, and again proves the value of a list such as th= is.

Al G



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html

 


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