X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtp103.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([68.142.229.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with SMTP id 3876902 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:39:32 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.142.229.102; envelope-from=bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net Received: (qmail 45890 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2009 23:38:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO acer7fbfa7e2f7) (bryanwinberry@74.176.194.79 with login) by smtp103.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 2009 23:38:56 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: bm7mBQIVM1kOma5dbneCBRcn0gvx9SEw6NWRakL9ksinbOkzfrOPDVTDhGiWdFAbh1kNCL4oelLIsvWHwPVOK4Y9en6A2MR03OUk1ll6VSdIfktf6iDZZzmOQxtYhoML2OYvpG.LbhJ8XkVKFi1AakJsZTCcETmaBKDks10y131FCGW0OuGERe2BPLhljC.spVUwyK4PHmvZdBiYBiBNfnDcYUvsjgT9eFQrn31wd.rckMG3GA.CCT1j89LXORq6y2ppMfvF_HhLwFlczLzl24PVfKFeQLBJ44YRr.GU3C94NKrr2Db67m8lmPLHP.VQSyA.I4kr2mWqyR7ogrq5JGKLKKLySHqwLO1iH0JNSSj2 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Bryan Winberry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Seepage, no more. Oil system Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 19:38:55 -0400 Message-ID: <3DC545EF7FD5499397A7258129F51D6E@acer7fbfa7e2f7> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006B_01CA46BC.A4900BA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AcpGzFjEFFyoz5ZjRC+XQmM0ZYwACQAEBNCw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01CA46BC.A4900BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, I certainly am not an expert, just relaying my findings from those who do have a lot of knowledge regarding these engines. On that note, as I have become more involved with this engine and its' aviation application, I find that much advice comes from the racers. I'm certainly not knocking that either, but sometimes you have to remind them that you're not looking for racetrack performance. It's more about reliability (at least for me). So, I'm not saying that leaving the ball/springs in is the only way to go. Just that it's not mandatory to remove them. If I read Lynn's later response correctly, he seemed to indicate that in our application, this mod would likely not make a difference. And Lynn, if I misinterpreted your excellent explanation of the whole Mazda warm up scheme, please let me know. Further, please don't think I'm in any way knocking the racing crowd, because they contribute enormously to our challenge. Bryan _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 5:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Seepage, no more. Oil system Bryan, I can't get my head around that one. To my way of thinking the jets supply cooling oil to the rotor, when the rotor is full it is in best balance. If the jest didn't open until very high RPM the rotors wouldn't be getting cooled ( I guess that's good for fuel atomization) or be in best balance and the rotors would probably have no oil in them at all thought centrifugal force slinging the oil out. The oil spilling from the rotor also feed the fixed rotor gear. No oil, no gear lube and rotor not in best balance. To me your statement doesn't ring true. I must accept what Lynn says, in that they open with RPM - but what RPM, surely not very high RPM. However I stand to be corrected. George ( down under) FWIW, When I was rebuilding my Renesis, I had planned to install the jets. I purchased them from Atkins against their recommendation. I bounced it off Tracy, and he concurred with Atkins. Their contention was that the jets were more for auto racing applications (very high rpm's). Bryan _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 3:45 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Seepage, no more. Oil system Hi Lynn, with regards to your high-lighted comment about the check balls in the crank - that is one item Bruce Turrentine suggested be removed in an overhaul for aircraft applications, replacing the balls with a carburetor jet to allow oil flow right away and continuously. So, I did install carburetor jets in my e-shaft during rebuild. Any comments? Anybody else out there do the same thing? Just curious as I'm fighting high oil temps. Jeff Plus, the rotary is cold blooded. The big bearings stress the oil film to no great extent, and the major source of oil temperature is rotor cooling. At low speeds and idle, the check balls in the crank don't even open to allow cooling oil to spray into the engine. Those balls operate as a function of RPM not temperature. On the other hand, you will get a water temperature increase within one minute of startup. A water based coolant has very low viscosity and flow to a distant heat exchanger will be immediate. Like the rear heater in my school bus. Lynn E. Hanover ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01CA46BC.A4900BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

George,

=

 

I certainly am not an expert, just relaying my findings from those who do have a lot of knowledge regarding = these engines.   On that note, as I have become more involved with = this engine and its’ aviation application, I find that much advice = comes from the racers.  I’m certainly not knocking that either, but = sometimes you have to remind them that you’re not looking for racetrack = performance.  It’s more about reliability (at least for = me).

 

So, I’m not saying that = leaving the ball/springs in is the only way to go.  Just that it’s not = mandatory to remove them.

 

If I read Lynn’s later response = correctly, he seemed to indicate that in our application, this mod would likely not = make a difference.

 

And Lynn, if I misinterpreted your excellent explanation of the whole Mazda warm = up scheme, please let me know.

 

Further, please don’t think = I’m in any way knocking the racing crowd, because they contribute enormously = to our challenge.

 

Bryan

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Tuesday, October = 06, 2009 5:31 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Seepage, no more. Oil system

 

 

Bryan,

I can't get my head around that one.  To my way = of thinking the jets supply cooling oil to the rotor, when the rotor is = full it is in best balance. If the jest didn't open until very high RPM the rotors wouldn't be getting cooled ( I guess that's good for fuel = atomization) or be in best balance and the rotors would probably have no oil in them at = all thought centrifugal force slinging the oil out. The oil spilling from = the rotor also feed the fixed rotor gear. No oil, no gear lube and rotor not = in best balance.

 

To me your statement doesn't ring true. I must accept = what Lynn says, in = that they open with RPM - but what RPM, surely not very high RPM. However I stand = to be corrected.

George ( down under)

 

FWIW,

When I was rebuilding my Renesis, I = had planned to install the jets.  I purchased them from Atkins against = their recommendation.  I bounced it off Tracy, and he concurred with Atkins.  Their contention was that the jets = were more for auto racing applications (very high = rpm’s).

Bryan

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley
Sent: Tuesday, October = 06, 2009 3:45 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Seepage, no more. Oil system

 

Hi Lynn, with regards to your high-lighted comment about the check balls in the = crank – that is one item Bruce Turrentine suggested be removed in an = overhaul for aircraft applications, replacing the balls with a carburetor jet to = allow oil flow right away and continuously. So, I did install carburetor jets = in my e-shaft during rebuild. Any comments? Anybody else out there do the same thing?  Just curious as I’m fighting high oil = temps.

Jeff

 

Plus, the rotary = is cold blooded. The big bearings stress the oil film to no great extent, = and the major source of oil temperature is rotor cooling. At low speeds and = idle, the check balls in the crank don't even open to allow cooling oil to spray = into the engine. Those balls operate as a function of RPM not = temperature. 

 

On the other hand, you will get a = water temperature increase within one minute of startup. A water based = coolant has very low viscosity and flow to a distant heat exchanger will be = immediate. Like the rear heater in my school bus.

 

Lynn E. = Hanover

 

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