X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost06.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.56] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3875403 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:59:39 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.56; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1254772780; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=+Pnz4L PEpguPnk7q2L651nyXG9tesklGApSYep17aHk=; b=Dv95Jyaoy3vhVUijcQpdDS5sc 6ck68dQcgcMbTCqJKUIPbuWTm6ukgGZuvmv0dQCGRnxDdKFYjKriooXDSdoqA== Received: from fwebmail02.isp.att.net ([204.127.218.102]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc06) with SMTP id <20091005195905H0600ll22le>; Mon, 5 Oct 2009 19:59:05 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.218.102] Received: from [208.114.40.100] by fwebmail02.isp.att.net; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:59:04 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: Seepage, no more. Oil system Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:59:04 +0000 Message-Id: <100520091959.19727.4ACA50080001979200004D0F22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19727_1254772744_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19727_1254772744_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, If you retain the front cooler for cabin heat and some oil cooling try "= Paralleling" the oil flow as laid out below.......Should require fewer changes (extra fittin= gs and whatever hose changes are required for your installation compared to switching the f= ront cooler to engine coolent............... As stated previously a "Y" fitting from your rear oil cooler to a "Y" fitt= ing on the 13B rear housing...........Connect one side of the rear cooler fitting directly= to one side of the rear housing fitting..........Connect other side of rear cooler fitting to = tubing going to the=20 front cooler...........Connect tubing returning from front cooler to the ot= her side of the "Y" fitting on the rear housing...........This will eliminate any restricti= on from the front=20 cooler but should still allow enough flow for some cooling and provide for = cabin heat IMHO............Somebody jump in here if I am having flawed reasoning !!= ...........=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from Chris Barber : --------------=20 Al, Yes, the aluminum lines run down the left duct to in front of the canard bu= lkhead, so no lines are actually in the cabin. I do not have an additional= oil cooler plumbed in the engine compartment I do know the system was plumbed in series, however, my ignorance prevents = me from knowing why re-plumbing them in parallel would change things. Does= plumbing in parallel prevent the front cooler from being a restriction poi= nt since oil can flow past the front cooler while still filling it with hot= oil for cabin heating??? Hmm, not sure how I would plumb this. I understand why higher pressured hot oil in the cabin is not good, but as = you and I know, the lines are not actually in the cabin. The occupants are= isolated, but I now wonder if it may just be better to use the front coole= r for heating using water. That being said, it does not currently seem I ne= ed additional water cooling, but could use some more oil cooling ,thus a po= tential benefit of a front oil cooler. Of course all of this is on the gro= und in a very hot environment....it may be fine at 100+ mph. It is all spe= culation for now. My mind is still trying to wrap my mind around the balance of what is "best= ", acceptable and no way in hell and all the shades of gray in between. THANKS to all for allowing me to share and gain information. I got some fi= gerin' to do. All the best, Chris Barber Houston From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Al Gietzen [ALVentures@cox.net] Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:14 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Seepage, no more. Oil system Hi; Chris; Seems to me the simplest approach, since you have that system all set up; i= s to simply connect the front oil cooler in parallel for use as your heater= . I assume you have the lines running through the left side duct per plans= , so the lines are not the cabin. That way in can still provide some addit= ional cooling for your oil, and provide cabin heat as required.=20=20 Do you already have another cooler plumbed in near the engine? I=E2=80=99d= recommend -10 lines. FWIW; Al G=20 My question to the collective is; would it be acceptable to use the aviatio= n oil cooler that is already installed in conjunction with my currant water= coolant system. My thinking is that an oil cooler, if I understand correct= ly, is more "durable" and able to withstand more pressure than the standard= water radiator. Of course, there may be reasons other than pressure that w= ould factor in, I just don't know them. IIRC, oil pressure has been up to 75 psi, whereas stock coolant pressure ca= ps are at about 13 and some in our uses some use 21psi caps. Thus, seemingl= y, this stock aviation cooler should be up to the task of being plumbed int= o my coolant system to provide heat for the cabin. I would think, perhaps i= n errors, that it should be at least as durable as a standard heater core. = It would save a nice bit of time not having to redo the glass and plumbing = at the front of the plane. I would like, in an ideal world, to remove the o= il cooler from then nose, flush it and reinstall as a water radiator.=20 --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19727_1254772744_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19727_1254772744_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19727_1254772744_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
   If you retain the front cooler for cabin heat and some oi= l cooling try "Paralleling" the
oil flow as laid out below.......Should require fewer changes (extra f= ittings and whatever
hose changes are required for your installation compared to switching = the front cooler
to engine coolent...............
 
 As stated previously a "Y" fitting from your rear oil coole= r to a "Y" fitting on the 13B
rear housing...........Connect one side of the rear cooler f= itting directly to one side of the
rear housing fitting..........Connect other side of rear cooler f= itting to tubing going to the
front cooler...........Connect tubing returning from front cooler = ;to the other side of the
"Y" fitting on the rear housing...........This will eliminate any rest= riction from the front
cooler but should still allow enough flow for some cooling and provide= for cabin heat
   IMHO............Somebody jump in here if I am having flaw= ed reasoning !!........... 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from Chris Barber <cbarbe= r1@texasattorney.net>: --------------

Al,
 
Yes, the aluminum lines run dow= n the left duct to in front of the canard bulkhead, so no lines are actuall= y in the cabin.  I do not have an additional oil cooler plumbed in the= engine compartment
 
I do know the system was plumbe= d in series, however, my ignorance prevents me from knowing why re-plu= mbing them in parallel would change things.  Does plumbing in par= allel prevent the front cooler from being a restriction point since oi= l can flow past the front cooler while still filling it with hot oil for ca= bin heating??? Hmm, not sure how I would plumb this.
 
I understand why higher pressur= ed hot oil in the cabin is not good, but as you and I know, the lines are n= ot actually in the cabin.  The occupants are isolated, but I now wonde= r if it may just be better to use the front cooler for heating using water.= That being said, it does not currently seem I need additional water c= ooling, but could use some more oil cooling ,thus a potential benefit of a = front oil cooler.  Of course all of this is on the ground in a very ho= t environment....it may be fine at 100+ mph.  It is all speculation fo= r now.
 
My mind is still trying to wrap= my mind around the balance of what is "best", acceptable and no way in hel= l and all the shades of gray in between.
 
THANKS to all for allowing me t= o share and gain information.  I got some figerin' to do.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen [ALVentures@cox.net]
S= ent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:14 AM
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Seepage, no more. Oil system
=

Hi; Chris;

 = ;

Seems to me the sim= plest approach, since you have that system all set up; is to simply connect= the front oil cooler in parallel for use as your heater.  I assume yo= u have the lines running through the left side duct per plans, so the lines= are not the cabin.  That way in can still provide some additional coo= ling for your oil, and provide cabin heat as required.  =

 = ;

Do you already have= another cooler plumbed in near the engine?  I=E2=80=99d recommend -10= lines.

 = ;

FWIW;=

 = ;

Al G =

 = ;

= My question to the collective is; would it be acceptable to use the aviat= ion oil cooler that is already installed in conjunction with my currant wat= er coolant system. My thinking is that an oil cooler, if I understand corre= ctly, is more "durable" and able to withstand more pressure than the standa= rd water radiator. Of course, there may be reasons other than pressure that= would factor in, I just don't know them.

=  

= IIRC, oil pressure has been up to 75 psi, whereas stock coolant pressure = caps are at about 13 and some in our uses some use 21psi caps. Thus, seemin= gly, this stock aviation cooler should be up to the task of being plumbed i= nto my coolant system to provide heat for the cabin. I would think, perhaps= in errors, that it should be at least as durable as a standard heater core= . It would save a nice bit of time not having to redo the glass and plumbin= g at the front of the plane. I would like, in an ideal world, to remove the= oil cooler from then nose, flush it and reinstall as a water radiator.

 

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