X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost04.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3873373 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Oct 2009 15:03:30 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.54; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1254596611; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=YCXQH0 mLvYkxbxNjoHvsIa29USOWpCaMJTCl6i3YO44=; b=mqyohv+KFPsdJdEZn4GYwRfEY 2eHg9+xCuGTOaSnpE1SJkyZZ43OQ/SCDc5SAbgFDSAJ3dfK3GSrLaEImPxZkA== Received: from fwebmail15.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.115]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc04) with SMTP id <20091003190256H0400g4tede>; Sat, 3 Oct 2009 19:02:56 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.115] Received: from [208.114.32.2] by fwebmail15.isp.att.net; Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:02:55 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: Too much oil pressure. Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:02:55 +0000 Message-Id: <100320091902.2446.4AC79FDF000331E40000098E22230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2446_1254596575_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2446_1254596575_0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris, If the front cooler is in series with the rear cooler you might consider making it parallel with the rear cooler (hook it up parallel temporarily as a test) and note any pressure changes...........Make a temporary "Y" hookup at oil out of the rear cooler to a second "Y" fitting to the 13B rear housing to receive oil from both coolers (I am presuming that your coolers are after the filter).................. -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from Chris Barber : -------------- Kelly, Those are some great thoughts. Yes, the front oil cooler IS for a Lycoming 360 from Velocity. I do have a 3rd gen Mazda cooler that should fit in the same space with a bit of glass modification. It never dawned on me that the aircraft cooler (costing about $350.00) could be the problem, but if you know it to be more restrictive, that is a great area to look into. I don't recall the hose size...they are 8 or 10. The oil lines to the front cooler are 1/2 inch alumunum tubing. I also do not recall the hose that broke, whether it is leading to or from the filter, back cooler or front cooler. It will be easy to determing. I am really curious about the restriction in the front cooler now. The restriction may also be causing my higher than wanted oil temperature....about 30 degrees higher than water. Thanks for your thoughts. All the best, Chris Barber Houston From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net] Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 12:33 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Too much oil pressure. Chris, A few Questions..................What size are your hoses (-8 , -10 , etc) ?............Does oil leaving the rear oil cooler routed 15 ft to a standard aircraft oil cooler ?...........Which hose has failed or is leaking ?.................If it is the 15 ft hose to the front cooler and is this cooler in series rather than parallel to the rear cooler I am guessing that the front cooler is restricting oil flow causing higher than normal pressure...............The standard Lycoming type oil coolers are not capable of the the oil flow (gals per minute) needed for a 13B without severely restricting flow and the resulting increase of oil pressure in the inlet hose.............Also the hose can be restrictive if it is too small for the 15 ft run...............IMHO -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from Chris Barber : -------------- The hose were made by me by parts from Summet and/or my local race shop. Most of the fittings are Earls AN fittings and the hose is, IIRC, Aeroquip. It is NOT stainless braided but high pressure rated. There was no interfearance with the hose rubbing anything. I am not at the hangar and I only glanced at the damage before I had to leave yesterday but I think it is a very short hose that burst. I can't recall where it is routed from. I will check all that out later if/when I get to the hangar today. NOW, just to verify the basics. If am an looking at the oil lubrication diagram properly and follow the little arrows in the picture, the oil EXITS the engine from the front of the engine (where the pully's are) and ENTERS back into the engine via the left rear nearer the PSRU/Prop. As David Staten mentioned, the remote oil mount has little arrows cast to the mount showing an in and an out....actually it is two "ins" and two "outs". I have one "out" sealed with a fitting and the other "in" has an adaptor that has my oil temp sensor installed. The hose goes IN to the filter from the hose that comes OUT of the engine and comes OUT of the filter to be routed back IN to the engine. This install has a longer oil routing since it goes to a second oil cooler mounted in the front of the plane for cabin heating (per Velocity plans). My earlier concern was that oil pressure would be too low due to the 15 feet or so run to the front of the plane and then back. Also, Chrissi has expressed concern over the aviation oil cooler provided by Velocity may not be up to the task. I think part of this concern has been due to the failurs of air conidtioning units being used as coolers and burtsing in use. It seems as if the front cooler was up to the task, but, alas the line was not. Of course my focus now is to the WHY. I hope it is just a bad hose. Donno yet. I really did not have time to look it over before I had to leave. I had time to put a towel down with a oil drain pan on the towel to catch the remants of the dripping oil. This "opportunity" will allow me to check the rest of the system. I had already concluded it needed to be reviewed due to the attempts at the filter/filter mount were not the problem. Again, the indicated oil pressure is what I expected, so now to try and determine why indicated pressure was ok, but it was obvioulsy much higher as shown by the leaking filter and now burst hose.....I am guessin', as Lynn mentioned, this hose was bad, thus, while holding too high of pressure for a while and not to rated pressure, it failure point was finally reached. When I installed the system, I was getting good flow. Also, the entire system does heat up, so oil is still flowing. I will advise what I find. Thanks guys. All the best, Chris Barber Houston From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover [lehanover@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 10:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Too much oil pressure. Lynn Hanover wrote: > > > The fittings from different manufacturers should not be interchanged. > The fittings from different styles from the same manufacturer should > not be interchanged. Be aware that AN (Airforce-Navy Standard) (the > airplane stuff) and JIC (Joint Industry Standard) look identical. > The SAE hose looks exactly the same as well but will more likely have > 45 drgree flair angles rather than 37 degree flair angles. > ........ All the fittings on the engine are AN fittings, and purchased from Summit Racing by me, unless Chris has changed something since my exit from the project. The oil conduit hoses weren't the 3000 lb test but it wasn't cheap hose by any means. It was build-a-hose kinda stuff from Summit. Unless he has changed things, the front oil pressure relief was stock and the rear oil pressure valve was stock. The cooler was before the filter. The cooler was a mazda cooler. The aftermarket oil filter mount has arrows on it indicating in/out for flow. david.staten@gmail.com I just checked the Summit Catalogue, and the page says the fittings are "AN". That suggests, at the least, that the pieces would be legal on a real airplane if you had the paper trail to an approved manufacturer. I saw no mention of pressure rating, but even the lowest rating would be well above anything a homebuilt plane would need. I have hundreds of buys from Summit and never a bad part. If the hose was assembled at home and not tested by a hose shop, then my idea about the hose is still valid. There are some tricks to assembling hose ends that do not show up in the directions. The process is easy if you have done it a few hundred times. The Teflon liner is very soft and can be damaged easily during assembly. A single piece of braid wire folded back can pierce the liner on assembly or months later. You must inspect the whole piece of hose before assembly for a single broken braid wire. If you can see both ends of the failure, fine. If only one end, the other end is free on the inside of the braid next to the hose liner. Cut the hose through the broken braid and use the remaining pieces if you can, for shorter runs. If all of the other statments are accurate, it has to be the hose. Lynn E. Hanover Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2446_1254596575_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2446_1254596575_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2446_1254596575_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
   If the front cooler is in series with the rear cooler you= might consider making it parallel
with the rear cooler (hook it up parallel temporarily as a test) and n= ote any pressure
changes...........Make a temporary "Y" hookup at oil out of the r= ear cooler to a second
 "Y" fitting to the 13B rear housing to receive oil from both coo= lers (I am presuming that
your coolers are after the filter)..................  
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from Chris Barber <cbarbe= r@bellairepolice.com>: --------------

Kelly,
 
Those are some great thoughts.&= nbsp; Yes, the front oil cooler IS for a Lycoming 360 from Velocity.  = I do have a 3rd gen Mazda cooler that should fit in the same space with a b= it of glass modification.  It never dawned on me that the aircraft coo= ler (costing about $350.00) could be the problem, but if you know it to be = more restrictive, that is a great area to look into.
 
I don't recall the hose size...= they are 8 or 10.  The oil lines to the front cooler are 1/2 inch alum= unum tubing.
 
I also do not recall the hose t= hat broke, whether it is leading to or from the filter, back cooler or fron= t cooler.  It will be easy to determing.  I am really curious abo= ut the restriction in the front cooler now.  The restriction may also = be causing my higher than wanted oil temperature....about 30 degrees higher= than water.
 
Thanks for your thoughts.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net]
Sen= t: Saturday, October 03, 2009 12:33 PM
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Too much oil pressure.
Chris,
    A few Questions..................What siz= e are your hoses (-8 , -10 , etc) ?............Does oil leaving
the rear oil cooler  routed 15 ft to a standard aircraft oil cool= er ?...........Which hose has failed or
is leaking ?.................If it is the 15 ft hose to the front cool= er and is this cooler  in series  rather
than parallel to the rear cooler I am guessing that the front cooler i= s restricting oil flow causing
higher than normal pressure...............The standard Lycoming type o= il coolers are not capable
of the the oil flow (gals per minute) needed for  a 13B with= out severely restricting flow and the
resulting increase of oil pressure in the inlet hose.............Also = the hose can be restrictive if it
is too small for the 15 ft run...............IMHO
 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from Chris Barber <cbarbe= r@bellairepolice.com>: --------------

The hose were m= ade by me by parts from Summet and/or my local race shop.  Most of the= fittings are Earls AN fittings and the hose is, IIRC, Aeroquip.  It i= s NOT stainless braided but high pressure rated.  There was no interfe= arance with the hose rubbing anything.  I am not at the hangar and I o= nly glanced at the damage before I had to leave yesterday but I think it is= a very short hose that burst.  I can't recall where it is routed from= .  I will check all that out later if/when I get to the hangar today.<= /FONT>
 
NOW, just to verify the basics.=   If am an looking at the oil lubrication diagram properly and follow = the little arrows in the picture, the oil EXITS the engine from the front o= f the engine (where the pully's are) and ENTERS back into the engine via th= e left rear nearer the PSRU/Prop.  As David Staten mentioned, the remo= te oil mount has little arrows cast to the mount showing an in and an out..= ..actually it is two "ins" and two "outs".  I have one "out" sealed wi= th a fitting and the other "in" has an adaptor that has my oil te= mp sensor installed.  The hose goes IN to the filter from the hose tha= t comes OUT of the engine and comes OUT of the filter to be routed back IN = to the engine. 
 
This install has a longer oil r= outing since it goes to a second oil cooler mounted in the front of the pla= ne for cabin heating (per Velocity plans).  My earlier concern was tha= t oil pressure would be too low due to the 15 feet or so run to the front o= f the plane and then back.  Also, Chrissi has expressed concern over t= he aviation oil cooler provided by Velocity may not be up to the task. = ; I think part of this concern has been due to the failurs of air conidtion= ing units being used as coolers and burtsing in use.  It seems as if t= he front cooler was up to the task, but, alas the line was not. 
 
Of course my focus now is to th= e WHY.
 
I hope it is just a bad hose.&n= bsp; Donno yet.  I really did not have time to look it over before I h= ad to leave.   I had time to put a towel down with a oil drain pan on = the towel to catch the remants of the dripping oil.  This "opportunity= " will allow me to check the rest of the system.  I had already conclu= ded it needed to be reviewed due to the attempts at the filter/filter mount= were not the problem.  Again, the indicated oil pressure is what I ex= pected, so now to try and determine why indicated pressure was ok, but it w= as obvioulsy much higher as shown by the leaking filter and now burst hose.= ....I am guessin', as Lynn mentioned, this hose was bad, thus, while holdin= g too high of pressure for a while and not to rated pressure, it failure po= int was finally reached. 
 
When I installed the system, I = was getting good flow.  Also, the entire system does heat up, so oil i= s still flowing. 
 
I will advise what I find.
 
Thanks guys.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover [lehanover@gmail.com]
<= B>Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 10:05 AM
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Too much oil pressure.

Lynn Hanover wrote:
>
> 
> The fittings from d= ifferent manufacturers should not be interchanged.
> The fittings fr= om different styles from the same manufacturer should
> not be inter= changed. Be aware that AN (Airforce-Navy Standard) (the
> airplane s= tuff) and JIC (Joint Industry Standard) look identical.
> The SAE ho= se looks exactly the same as well but will more likely have
> 45 drg= ree flair angles rather than 37 degree flair angles.
> ........
Al= l the fittings on the engine are AN fittings, and purchased from
Summit= Racing by me, unless Chris has changed something since my exit
from th= e project.

The oil conduit hoses weren't the 3000 lb test but it was= n't cheap hose
by any means. It was build-a-hose kinda stuff from Summi= t.

Unless he has changed things, the front oil pressure relief was s= tock
and the rear oil pressure valve was stock.
The cooler was befor= e the filter. The cooler was a mazda cooler.

The aftermarket oil fil= ter mount has arrows on it indicating in/out for
flow.
 
I just checked the Summit Catalogue, and the page says the fittings ar= e "AN". That suggests, at the least, that the pieces would be legal on a re= al airplane if you had the paper trail to an approved manufacturer. I saw n= o mention of pressure rating, but even the lowest rating would be well abov= e anything a homebuilt plane would need. I have hundreds of buys from Summi= t and never a bad part.
 
If the hose was assembled at home and not tested by a hose shop, = then my idea about the hose is still valid. There are some tricks to assemb= ling hose ends that do not show up in the directions. The process is easy i= f you have done it a few hundred times. 
 
The Teflon liner is very soft and can be damaged easily during assembl= y. A single piece of braid wire folded back can pierce the liner on assembl= y or months later.
 
You must inspect the whole piece of hose before assembly for a single = broken braid wire. If you can see both ends of the failure, fine. If only o= ne end, the other end is free on the inside of the braid next to the hose l= iner. Cut the hose through the broken braid and use the remaining pieces if= you can, for shorter runs.
 
If all of the other statments are accurate, it has to be the hose.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 

Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any docum= ents, files or previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential in= formation that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient= or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you= are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of a= ny of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRI= CTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please im= mediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original t= ransmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you.


Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, f= iles or previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential informati= on that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the= person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are he= reby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of t= he information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PR= OHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediate= ly notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmis= sion and its attachments without reading them. Thank you.

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